Would you sacrifice your own son like Abraham was ready to

[Jagella]

I was studying Hebrews 11 today which praises people of faith. Verses 17-19 of that chapter lauds Abraham's obedience to God as Abraham was ready to murder his own son Isaac. (The original grotesque tale appears in Genesis 22.)

Would you murder your own son if God asked you to?

Yes--Well, this answer speaks for itself.

No--Then you admit that your religion is immoral.

I think I have faith of my own that none of the Christians here will give a straight, honest answer to this question. You will stonewall and do everything you can to divert attention away from this issue. You know that your religion is immoral but will never admit it.

[marco]

No, I am not making that point. Human sacrifice, apart from self sacrifice, is not proper. That is part of the lesson of the story.

It is astonishing how we can extract an explanation that seems diametrically opposite to the one that is obvious. We can read torture and crucifixion as love. We can read "Kill your son" to mean "Don't kill your son."

In any event the evil is not in the silly participation of the brute Abraham but in ascribing such a request to a deity, for then we deduce that God can ask anything, even if it is patently evil. The idiot ending with a trapped ram and God licking his lips over the fresh, blood sacrifice comes from the heads of savages. It offers a wonderful excuse for those who say: "God told me to."

[Jagella]

[Replying to post 111 by marco]

It is astonishing how we can extract an explanation that seems diametrically opposite to the one that is obvious. We can read torture and crucifixion as love. We can read "Kill your son" to mean "Don't kill your son."

I see that kind of eisegesis all the time. It's good in a way because by rewording the Bible to force it in line with modern, secular morality we tacitly admit that the morals of the Bible are no longer acceptable in a civilized society.

[Elijah John]

No, I am not making that point. Human sacrifice, apart from self sacrifice, is not proper. That is part of the lesson of the story.

It is astonishing how we can extract an explanation that seems diametrically opposite to the one that is obvious. We can read torture and crucifixion as love. We can read "Kill your son" to mean "Don't kill your son."

In any event the evil is not in the silly participation of the brute Abraham but in ascribing such a request to a deity, for then we deduce that God can ask anything, even if it is patently evil. The idiot ending with a trapped ram and God licking his lips over the fresh, blood sacrifice comes from the heads of savages. It offers a wonderful excuse for those who say: "God told me to."

I fear sometimes that the whole atrocious episode has inspired some unstable people to kill or attempt to kill their own children in the name of God, for "their own good" or because they heard voices and ascribed the evil command to the Almighty.

[Jagella]

[Replying to post 113 by Elijah John]

I fear sometimes that the whole atrocious episode has inspired some unstable people to kill or attempt to kill their own children in the name of God, for "their own good" or because they heard voices and ascribed the evil command to the Almighty.

Sadly, the "madness continues." Here's a story of a mother who killed her son believing he'd be better off in heaven, Mom kills son believing boy would be better off in heaven. This evil has got to stop!!!

[bluethread]

No, I am not making that point. Human sacrifice, apart from self sacrifice, is not proper. That is part of the lesson of the story.

It is astonishing how we can extract an explanation that seems diametrically opposite to the one that is obvious. We can read torture and crucifixion as love. We can read "Kill your son" to mean "Don't kill your son."

First, that is an improper quote. It does not say, "Kill your son" and what it does say does not mean "Don't kill your son." Avraham was told to do what was a practice of the time. After Avraham had made all of the preparations, Adonai said. "Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him". That is a quote. One of the lessons of the passage is that practice is not acceptable. When people are told to do things in the Scriptures that does not mean that everyone is to do those things.

In any event the evil is not in the silly participation of the brute Abraham but in ascribing such a request to a deity, for then we deduce that God can ask anything, even if it is patently evil. The idiot ending with a trapped ram and God licking his lips over the fresh, blood sacrifice comes from the heads of savages. It offers a wonderful excuse for those who say: "God told me to."

On the contrary, the evil(ra') is in the act. It was stopped because it was an evil(ra') practice. Avraham was told to do it because it was the practice of the time(ra') and was then stopped from doing it because it was evil(ra'). It was an object lesson. We are not to do the practices of the times, but the practices of the covenant.

The sacrifice of the ram was also an object lesson, but an acceptable one. It wasn't that it was a meal for Adonai. It was an indication of one's devotion. It symbolizes the death of the one doing the sacrifice. The Avrahamic covenant is in the form of an ancient blood oath, i.e. the one who violates the covenant is to become like the sacrifice. Why was it done that way? Because, that is the way the people of the time would have understood it. How can one know that this would not happen today? Because that is not the practice of this time. We see a similar situation with regard to Baalam, who is permitted to go with Baalak, but stopped during the trip to reinforce the fact that he was not to curse Israel. There are other practices of our time, that I could foresee giving rise to a similar event, i.e. abortion.

[Jagella]

[Replying to post 115 by bluethread]

On the contrary, the evil(ra') is in the act. It was stopped because it was an evil(ra') practice. Avraham was told to do it because it was the practice of the time(ra') and was then stopped from doing it because it was evil(ra'). It was an object lesson. We are not to do the practices of the times, but the practices of the covenant.

Not all such sacrifices were stopped. In Judges 11:29-40 Jephthah offered up his own daughter as a burnt offering to "the Lord." God accepted her as a sacrifice. So you're wrong if you claim that "the practices of the covenant" forbade human sacrifice to Yahweh.

But again, the point is not so much what evil people actually do for their religious beliefs but what evil they agree to do.

[shnarkle]

I was studying Hebrews 11 today which praises people of faith. Verses 17-19 of that chapter lauds Abraham's obedience to God as Abraham was ready to murder his own son Isaac. (The original grotesque tale appears in Genesis 22.)

Would you murder your own son if God asked you to?

Yes--Well, this answer speaks for itself.

No--Then you admit that your religion is immoral.

I think I have faith of my own that none of the Christians here will give a straight, honest answer to this question. You will stonewall and do everything you can to divert attention away from this issue. You know that your religion is immoral but will never admit it.

Since you are comparing Abraham to Christians I should point out that your question isn't comparing apples to oranges. Abraham was a strict Monotheist, while Christians aren't.

So the question becomes which one did you mean? If God is asking me as a strict monotheist, then the answer would be an immediate "Yes". If I were a Christian, the answer would be to waffle, hem and haw, deflect, obfuscate, etc. If I were an atheist, agnostic, or skeptic, I would probably check myself into the nearest sheriff's station for a psychological examination.

Your question presupposes that I have a choice in the first place. From that standpoint, I would decline God's request. However, I don't think that's an option, especially for Abraham. There really is nothing else he could do because the same God that is asking him to sacrifice his son is the same God who has given Abe his revulsion at God's request in the first place. For a strict monotheist, God is above any discussion of logic or morality, and would never descend to some idiotic roundtable discussion on the subject. We can attribute whatever virtue we please to God, and then turn right around and claim that these are the standards God has given us, but we're just degrading monotheism, and pretending that we're either believers or that we know better than God.

[bluethread]

[Replying to post 115 by bluethread]

On the contrary, the evil(ra') is in the act. It was stopped because it was an evil(ra') practice. Avraham was told to do it because it was the practice of the time(ra') and was then stopped from doing it because it was evil(ra'). It was an object lesson. We are not to do the practices of the times, but the practices of the covenant.

Not all such sacrifices were stopped. In Judges 11:29-40 Jephthah offered up his own daughter as a burnt offering to "the Lord." God accepted her as a sacrifice. So you're wrong if you claim that "the practices of the covenant" forbade human sacrifice to Yahweh.

But again, the point is not so much what evil people actually do for their religious beliefs but what evil they agree to do.

The passage does not say that Jephthah offered up his own daughter as a burnt offering. Even if one presumes that to be what happened, there is nothing in the passage that states that Adonai commanded it, or even approved of it. It was Jephthah's vow and the incident was recorded without comment, apart from the overall comment regarding the time of the Judges, "all the people did what was right in their own eyes."

[Willum]

[Replying to post 118 by bluethread]

Still, it was insane for him to do it.
Filicide: Like genocide, incest, murder, rape and countless other crimes - it is OK when some people do it.

In any real situation, local law would step in and stop this nonsense.
Of course we're not talking about a real situation, we're talking about a book compiled of other peoples' fairy tales, and believed by a people who believe that a fraction of a fraction of them will go to heaven for believing them, if they got the right version.

I, myself, would rather be a moral person, and NOT think sacrificing a son or daughter would be a cool thing in any context.

[bluethread]

[Replying to post 118 by bluethread]

Still, it was insane for him to do it.
Filicide: Like genocide, incest, murder, rape and countless other crimes - it is OK when some people do it.

It is insane, that is the point. It is not OK. One should be careful with the vows one makes.

In any real situation, local law would step in and stop this nonsense.
Of course we're not talking about a real situation, we're talking about a book compiled of other peoples' fairy tales, and believed by a people who believe that a fraction of a fraction of them will go to heaven for believing them, if they got the right version.

Are you saying that ISIS was not real? There are many who beg to differ. Just because something does not comport with one's current situation, does not mean that it is not real.

I, myself, would rather be a moral person, and NOT think sacrificing a son or daughter would be a cool thing in any context.

Then you would be in agreement with the Scriptures.