"Meeting the Lord in the air"

[Elijah John]

I heard a preacher this morning critiquing the world, (and yes, there are some very real problems in our world, moral and otherwise) and promising that there is hope because the "true believers" in Jesus will soon be raptured up to "meet the Lord in the air". He shouted this in an ecstatic tone of voice, whipping the flock into frenzied applause.

It reminded me of those minor and odd sects that one hears about in the headlines from time to time, what some people may call "cults"?

I think if I had been a visitor to this congregation, (instead of watching it on TV) I would have experienced a little fear. And moreso because in the US, this kind of teaching and preaching is becoming more and more popular, and not confined to the margins.

=Is this kind of preaching and congregation response, an example of what psychologists would call a form of "mob mentality"?

-Why don't mainline Churches, such as the RCC, Orthodox, mainline Protestant, Episcopalian, Anglican etc, churches teach the "Rapture"?

Could it be they put a bit more emphasis on rationality in their approach?

Or are those mainline Churches simply delinquent from "true" Christianity?

And finally, Does this kind of preaching, and this kind of doctrine make the borderline skeptic more or less likely to believe in God?

[tam]

Peace to you JW,

[Replying to post 24 by tam]


WHEN DO SPIRIT ANOINTED CHRISTIAN RISE?

Which is in keeping with the verse from Thessalonians ... we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord

The operative word here is "until". While Paul here is saying that certain would be alive, they would remain alive until Christ's coming. What would happen to this group who were alive at that moment in time ("the coming of the Lord") is not explained in this expression.

But it IS explained in this passage.

By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, WE WHO ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.


Therefore:

We who are alive and remain will not precede those who have fallen asleep (died in Christ).

We who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them (those who have fallen asleep; those who have died in Christ) in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

When Paul said " the dead in Christ will be the first to rise" could he not be referring to those that died in 33 CE on?

No because ALL spirit anointed Christians can be described as "the dead in Christ".

Wait, what? Says who?


Does this not contradict your earlier assertion that falling asleep means being 'dead for a significant time'?

Please note that in this passage it is those who have fallen asleep who are described as the dead in Christ. (And yet again, Paul says that we will not all sleep. Therefore not all "spirit anointed Christians" can be the dead in Christ.) Please note also that Paul makes a very clear distinction between those who have "fallen asleep" and those who are "alive and remain".


You seem to be trying to have it both ways.


But...


If 'fallen asleep' means "being dead for a significant time" as you stated, then it cannot be referring to those who are alive at the coming of the Lord. Even YOU said that this cannot be referring to them because they do not sleep for a time, but only for a 'blink'. Therefore, and according to your OWN reasoning, 'fallen asleep' cannot be referring to all "spirit anointed Christians".


And if 'fallen asleep' means to die, as the scriptures use the phrase... then this STILL cannot be referring to all "spirit anointed Christians", because as Paul said, we will not all sleep.





Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
(edited to fix quote box)

[JehovahsWitness]

Therefore:

We who are alive and remain will not precede those who have fallen asleep (died in Christ).

That is correct. Here is the explanation of the above
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 395#917395

We who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them (those who have fallen asleep; those who have died in Christ) in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

That is correct. Here is the explanation of the above.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 395#917395

according to your OWN reasoning, 'fallen asleep' cannot be referring to all "spirit anointed Christians".

That is correct. Those that are alive when Christ returns will not need to "fall asleep" as in spend a significant period of time dead; of course they they will die (all humans have to die to attain to spirit life in heaven) but their death will be for just an instant, like a "blink of an eye" after which they will be "changed" as Paul said to their existance as spirits.

Here is the my earlier explanation of the above point
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 374#917374

Paul said, we will not all sleep.

I have already explained this point. Here is the link to my explanation
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 392#917392

[tam]

[Replying to post 32 by JehovahsWitness]

Simply repeating yourself or linking back to previous posts a) fails to move the discussion forward, and b) fails to address the inconsistencies or failings that were brought out in those previous posts.



You are certainly free to discontinue the discussion. But there is nothing to respond to when you just repeat yourself without addressing those inconsistencies or failings.




Peace to you and to your household.

[JehovahsWitness]

...ALL spirit anointed Christians can be described as "the dead in Christ".

Wait, what? Says who? [...] not all "spirit anointed Christians" can be the dead in Christ

1 THESSELONIANS 4:16

NWT
The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangels voice and with Gods trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.

ESV
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

WHO CAN BE SPOKEN OF AS BEING "DEAD IN CHRIST"?

Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 is specifically speaking about a particular group of Christians that are "dead in Christ" namely those that died prior to his (Christ's) presence. But within the larger discussion of the Christian calling, are we to conclude that the expression cannot be applied more generally to all spirit anointed Christians?

• Looking at the context, Paul is comforting certain first century Christians over the death of fellow believers (verse 13). He (Paul) points out that thanks to their faith in Jesus, any first century Christians who die will be raised from the dead. Projecting into the future Paul concludes that during the Lords "Presence" Jesus will call back to life "those who are dead in union with Christ" NWT "dead in Christ" (KJV) and afterwards "those surviving". While there is no denying Paul's words are somewhat ambigious, what we can say for SURE is that Paul does not state explicitly that those "surviving" would NOT eventually themselves also die "in union with Christ". Since he is focusing on when each group will be resurrected Paul is effectively silent on whether those "surviving" will also eventually be "die in union with Christ" so we must turn to other passages to shed light on this question.

ROMANS 6:3-5
Do you not know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? So we were buried with him through our baptism into his death, in order that just as Christ was raised up from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also should walk in a newness of life. 5 If we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will certainly also be united with him in the likeness of his resurrection.

It seems self evident that "born again" Christians must live and die faithful to their calling to enjoy their rewards. Paul in Romans points to their "baptism into [Christ's] death and resulting in a "new life" in heaven with him if indeed they do so. Interestingly he explicitly states that this is the case for "all" such believers (compare Rom 7:4). Other passages refer to this group as being a single united body, presented as a "bride" to Jesus (1 Cor 12:13, Col 3:15). In light of the above and many comparable scriptures it seems reasonable to conclude that ALL Christ's spirit anointed born again followers who die faithful can be spoken of as being "dead in union with Christ". Notice the conclusion draw by various bibe scholars:

BENSON COMMENTARY
And the dead in Christ " Those that had departed this life in a state of union with, and conformity to him; who had received his Spirit in its various graces, and imitated his example

GILL'S EXPOSITION OF THE ENTIRE BIBLE
And the dead in Christ [...] not only the martyrs that died for the sake of Christ, and his Gospel; nor merely those who die in the lively exercise of faith in Christ; but all that die interested in him, and in union with him: and these shall "rise", in consequence of their being his; being given to him, made his care and charge, and engaged for by him, and in virtue of their union to him; and shall rise to an entire conformity to his glorious body, and in order to enjoy eternal life and glory with him.

CAMBRIDGE BIBLE FOR SCHOOLS & COLLEGES
The dead in Christ This gives us the key to the Apostles meaning throughout. Being in Christ, having died as they lived in Him, nothing can part them from Him, neither death nor life (Romans 8:38).

CONCLUSION: Paul does not state that those Christians that survive until the Lord's presence will not eventually also themselves die in union with, or "in" Christ. The bible indicates this expression refers to members of Christ's bride who faithfully complete their earthly course, thus scripturally we can reasonabley conclude that all faithful spirit anointed born again Christians that finish their earthly mission united with Christ can be spoken of as dying "in Christ". While Paul is indeed speaking in 1 Thess specifically about those that are "dead in Christ" prior to his (Christ's) presence (as opposed to those that would be "dead" or "die in Christ" later) it would be rash to conclude the expression in general has no place in the wider context of the Christian calling.




FURTHER READING
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989259




RELATED POSTS

What did Jesus mean when he said certain individuals will meet the Lord "in the air"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 14#p917314

Does Paul's commentary above (1 Cor 15: 51-52; 1 Thess 4:13) indicate he believed that first century Christians would not die before christ's return?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 14#p752214

Does Paul means words that some will not "fall asleep in death" mean some people will never die?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 92#p917392

When do spirit anointed "born again" Christians join Christ in heaven?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 95#p917395

[JehovahsWitness]

Does this not contradict your earlier assertion that falling asleep means being 'dead for a significant time'?

No, it does not. All spirit anointed Christians must die in order to take up lives in spirit form in heaven. The question is how long will they remain dead.

• (a) Early Christians*: These are Christians that lived in the first century and after. This died from 33 CE onwards. They remained "asleep in death" for a significant period of time. Paul explained that these ones would not be taken to heaven before the Lord's presence. Jehovah' Witnesses believe this "presence" began in the year 1914.
  
  (b) Present Day Christians*: These are the Christians born just prior or during Christ's presence (1914 onwards) and who die "afterwards" (ie after the events of 1914). Paul speaks of such ones as "surviving" meaning they are alive on earth during the period of 1914 onwards. When they die they will not remain "asleep in death" meaning they will not have to remain dead for minuites, hours, days, months, years, decades, centuries or millennia but will as soon as they die they will instantly be "changed" in the "blink of an eye" to spirit beings to begin their heavenly lives.
  
  For more details on this please see my post #25 link below
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 392#917392

*spirit begotten "born again" Christians



WHO GETS TO HEAVEN "FIRST" ?

1 THESSELONIANS 4:16 - NWT
The Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangels voice and with Gods trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.

Those Christians who are dead (at the moment Jesus calls them back to life during His presence) will naturally get to heaven "first" ie before those that haven't yet died.

• To illustrate: Someone alive in 1914 (which JWs believe to be the beginning of "The Lord's presence") that died say in 1920 will have gotten to heaven 6 years after someone resurrected in 1914. Someone that died in 1950, will have arrived in heaven 36 years "after" those individuals who were resurrected in 1914 etc. etc.

Which of the above groups "meet Jesus in the air" when Jesus first calls ?

• The first Group (a). For more details on this please read THIS LINK from earlier
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 314#917314

Which of the above groups does not "fall asleep" (meaning remain dead for a long period)?

• The second group (b)

CONCLUSION Paul is explaining the organized way Jesus will call his co-rulers to live with him in heaven when he (Jesus) takes up kingdom rule.


RELATED POSTS

What did Jesus mean when he said certain individuals will meet the Lord "in the air"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 14#p917314

Does Paul's commentary above (1 Cor 15: 51-52; 1 Thess 4:13) indicate he believed that first century Christians would not die before christ's return?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 14#p752214

Does Paul means words that some will not "fall asleep in death" mean some people will never die?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 92#p917392

When do spirit anointed "born again" Christians join Christ in heaven?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 95#p917395

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 32 by JehovahsWitness]

Simply repeating yourself or linking back to previous posts a) fails to move the discussion forward, and b) fails to address the inconsistencies or failings that were brought out in those previous posts.



You are certainly free to discontinue the discussion. But there is nothing to respond to when you just repeat yourself without addressing those inconsistencies or failings.




Peace to you and to your household.

In situations such as this we can but try.

You have done what you can this time, good for you.

But it seems like a thankless, onerous, and fruitless task.

Will next time, next difference, just be more of the same, do you think?

[tam]

Peace again to you JW,

...ALL spirit anointed Christians can be described as "the dead in Christ".

Wait, what? Says who? [...] not all "spirit anointed Christians" can be the dead in Christ

WHO CAN BE SPOKEN OF AS BEING "DEAD IN CHRIST"?

Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 is specifically speaking about a particular group of Christians that are "dead in Christ" namely those that died prior to his (Christ's) presence.

Yes (to the bold). Paul is speaking specifically about those who die before Christ returns (versus those who are alive and who remain when Christ returns).


Nothing more needs to be added to this.

But within the larger discussion of the Christian calling, are we to conclude that the expression cannot be applied more generally to all spirit anointed Christians?

Yes we are to conclude this. Because Paul makes a clear distinction between those who have died before Christ returns (and these are the dead in Christ) from those who are still alive and who remain when Christ returns. Both are in Christ, but only those who have died can be called 'the dead in Christ'.


For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord

• Looking at the context, Paul is comforting certain first century Christians over the death of fellow believers (verse 13). He (Paul) points out that thanks to their faith in Jesus, any first century Christians who die will be raised from the dead. Projecting into the future Paul concludes that during the Lords "Presence" Jesus will call back to life "those who are dead in union with Christ" NWT "dead in Christ" (KJV) and afterwards "those surviving". While there is no denying Paul's words are somewhat ambigious,

His words are not at all ambiguous. His words simply do not fit the religious doctrine that you are presenting.

what we can say for SURE is that Paul does not state explicitly that those "surviving" would NOT eventually themselves also die "in union with Christ".

He DOES state that they will be ALIVE though. People tend to understand that the word 'alive' refers to those who are living; those who are not dead.



Then we who are alive and who remain at the coming of the Lord will be caught up together with them (the dead in Christ) to meet the Lord in the air.



What Paul does not state is this: " 'we who are alive' will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air after we die."

Since he is focusing on when each group will be resurrected Paul is effectively silent on whether those "surviving" will also eventually [strike]be[/strike] "die in union with Christ" so we must turn to other passages to shed light on this question.[/list]

ROMANS 6:3-5
Do you not know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? So we were buried with him through our baptism into his death, in order that just as Christ was raised up from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also should walk in a newness of life. 5 If we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will certainly also be united with him in the likeness of his resurrection.

Are you suggesting that this is a literal death and not metaphorical? How does that make sense? Note that he is speaking in the past tense here: All of us who WERE baptized into Christ [Jesus] WERE baptized into His death.

How could Paul mean that he and those he was speaking to had LITERALLY died when they were baptized into Christ? How could Paul be writing this if he had literally died?

It seems self evident that "born again" Christians must live and die faithful to their calling to enjoy their rewards. Paul in Romans points to their "baptism into [Christ's] death and resulting in a "new life" in heaven with him if indeed they do so. Interestingly he explicitly states that this is the case for "all" such believers (compare Rom 7:4).

So lets look at Romans 7:4

So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.


Are you again suggesting that dying to the law meant that they literally died? How?



Why are you using metaphorical passages about dying to support your theory that all "spirit anointed Christians" must literally die?

Other passages refer to this group as being a single united body, presented as a "bride" to Jesus (1 Cor 12:13, Col 3:15). In light of the above and many comparable scriptures it seems reasonable to conclude that ALL Christ's spirit anointed born again followers who die faithful can be spoken of as being "dead in union with Christ"

.

(bold is mine)

Yes, this (keeping the bold in mind) is obvious. All who die faithful can be spoken of as being 'dead in union with Christ'.

But the key word here is that they DIED.


The FACT that those who die in union with Christ are described as the dead in Christ does not mean that those who are ALIVE can be described as the dead in Christ. Yes?

Notice the conclusion draw by various bibe scholars:

The quotes from those bible scholars are referring ONLY to those faithful ones who have died. None of them are speaking about those who are still alive when Christ returns. So none of them can be used to support the claim you are making.




Peace again to you, and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

(edited to fix quote box)

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 37 by tam]

Well we will have to just agree to disagree on that point.

Have an excellent evening,

JW

[tam]

[Replying to post 32 by JehovahsWitness]

Simply repeating yourself or linking back to previous posts a) fails to move the discussion forward, and b) fails to address the inconsistencies or failings that were brought out in those previous posts.



You are certainly free to discontinue the discussion. But there is nothing to respond to when you just repeat yourself without addressing those inconsistencies or failings.




Peace to you and to your household.

In situations such as this we can but try.

You have done what you can this time, good for you.

But it seems like a thankless, onerous, and fruitless task.

Will next time, next difference, just be more of the same, do you think?

Peace to you Checkpoint, and thank you for your kindness.


As to your question, I try not to think about such things (except that I know that bearing witness to my Lord is never fruitless... even if we don't see or know what comes of it).


"What you have received for free, give for free."



Peace to you and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy