The most significant contradiction or inconcistency?

[shnarkle]

There are no shortage of online sites providing numerous examples of contradictions and inconsistencies from the biblical texts. While some of these are quite simply the result of poor reading comprehension skills or an unfamiliarity with the texts, others seem legitimate. Many of those that are legitimate are inconsequential, but some could be quite controversial and may have significant ramifications.

Of all the contradictions found in scripture, which ones could prove to be most disturbing, or have the most serious ramifications for "believers"?


One that I think fits this bill is Paul's view on eating food sacrificed to false gods. He doesn't seem to have a problem with it if it doesn't have a negative effect over a fellow believer's faith. While I can see his point, and also agree that none of those pagan deities are real, I do wonder how he is able to disregard the law which he upholds; a law that forbids eating anything that is sacrificed to idols.

The reason this could be looked at as disturbing is because it indicates to me that Paul has attributed capriciousness to Paul's God.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 1 by shnarkle]

Second candidate, the whole Trinity business. Trinitians have to make up new words to explain it re: consubstantial. Any analogy that tries to explain the relationship ends up being a heresy. Also related is the idea that Jesus is fully God and fully man.

I agree, the notion of the Trinity is an absurdity compelled by the box the early Christians built for themselves. They had to remain monotheist, yet one of their factions insisted Jesus of Nazareth was also God, so rather than admit to this heresy they came up with the idea they were both one and two. They also had to fit together the contradiction that this God was still fully human. This is the tangled web that is woven of fairy dust and contradiction that is required when one starts with lies and piles on more of them. Then they sit back and call it 'mystery.' And of course if you object to this obvious nonsense, they you are a heretic incapable of understanding. They strain gnats and swallow camels.

I would tend to agree, perhaps for some of the same reasons, but again this is beside the point of this topic. How does this translate into a contradiction within the texts?

The only one that comes to mind is "Hear O Israel the Lord your God is one Lord". On the surface this seems a contradiction from a strictly Monotheistic perspective in that the word for "God" in the Hebrew is "Elohim" which is in the plural. Then in the New Testament we encounter a similar situation with "I and the father are one". Tihs is quite often misquoted as "I am one with the father". The fact that it is misquoted doesn't reflect a contradiction anymore than the mysterious contradictions of Christianity does. However, the term "one" does seem to be indicating something other than numeration in both cases.

In the old testament we read that God is not some far away mysterious deity, but as close as the words coming out your own mouth, and in the new testament Jesus prays that just as the father is in him so too may he be found in his followers.

Of course I see your point as it is a pervasive one with science. We talk of polarity, yet what can only be one thing still requires two poles. So rather than admit to this heresy they came up with the idea they were both one and two. This is the tangled web that is woven of fairy dust and contradiction that is required when one starts with lies and piles on more of them. Then they sit back and call it 'mystery.' And of course if you object to this obvious nonsense, they you are a heretic incapable of understanding. They strain gnats and swallow camels.

[Bust Nak]

I would tend to agree, perhaps for some of the same reasons, but again this is beside the point of this topic. How does this translate into a contradiction within the texts?

Any text that is used to support the concept of 3 persons by Trinitians can be interpreted as saying there are 3 gods just as easily, which contradicts with any verses that says there is only 1.

The fact that it is misquoted doesn't reflect a contradiction anymore than the mysterious contradictions of Christianity does.

It's a dead give away that it makes no sense when the Trinity is described as a divine mystery.

[shnarkle]

I would tend to agree, perhaps for some of the same reasons, but again this is beside the point of this topic. How does this translate into a contradiction within the texts?

Any text that is used to support the concept of 3 persons by Trinitians can be interpreted as saying there are 3 gods just as easily, which contradicts with any verses that says there is only 1.

Again, the topic of this OP is not to search for contradictions in the minds of Trinitarians. The confused minds of Trinitarians is not what this topic is about.

The fact that it is misquoted doesn't reflect a contradiction anymore than the mysterious contradictions of Christianity does.

It's a dead give away that it makes no sense when the Trinity is described as a divine mystery.

Again, you are simply injecting a mystery into the text that isn't there at all. The term is nowhere to be found in the texts at all. There can be no contradiction when the term as well as this mystery you keep harping on don't exist in the texts.

Once again what seems to be becoming more and more apparant is that there really are no significant contradictions or inconsistencies in these texts at all. Given that the most common examples are all from external sources, one can't help wondering why this claim was made in the first place. It would seem the contradictions are from the religious rather than the texts they refere, as well as the skeptics who have been hoodwinked by these mysteries propagated by the religious.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 143 by shnarkle]

Well, any true story of significance has paradoxes and other seeming inconsistency.
So, by your own rationale, it is unlikely the Bible stories are anything other than artificial constructs derived to fool most of the people, most of the time.

[Bust Nak]

Again, the topic of this OP is not to search for contradictions in the minds of Trinitarians. The confused minds of Trinitarians is not what this topic is about.

I am talking about the text though.

There can be no contradiction when the term as well as this mystery you keep harping on don't exist in the texts.

There are numinous verses in the Bible that says there is only one God, and there are numinous verses that says Jesus is God, that says the Father is God and says Holy Spirit is God. Why does that not count as significant contradiction, if you accept that the Trinity is a contradictory concept? The same goes for the grace + work vs grace alone I mentioned above.

What's stopping you from insisting that a hypothetical verse that says "Jesus is God and Jesus is not God" is merely a contradiction that exist in the mind that reads that verse and conclude Jesus is God and Jesus is not God at the same time?

[shnarkle]

Again, the topic of this OP is not to search for contradictions in the minds of Trinitarians. The confused minds of Trinitarians is not what this topic is about.

I am talking about the text though.

Which texts? You haven't provided a set of contradictory texts. You've explicitly articulated a doctrine from Christianity which is blatantly contradictory to the text, but then as I pointed out before this topic isn't about contradictions within Christianity, but within the texts themselves.

There can be no contradiction when the term as well as this mystery you keep harping on don't exist in the texts.

There are numinous verses in the Bible that says there is only one God, and there are numinous verses that says Jesus is God, that says the Father is God and says Holy Spirit is God. Why does that not count as significant contradiction,

Because you haven't provided a single one. You have just asserted that these verses exist and that they are contradictory.

if you accept that the Trinity is a contradictory concept?

I don't know which concept you're referring to. The idea here is to confine our concepts to those that actually can be provided from the texts themselves, and there is no mention of the doctrine of the Trinity within any of the biblical texts.

The same goes for the grace + work vs grace alone I mentioned above.

Yes, I addressed and refuted that claim as well. You have yet to respond to the points I made.

What's stopping you from insisting that a hypothetical verse...

The fact that this topic isn't about hypothetical verses in the biblical texts. The topic is explicitly about verses that actually exist in the texts themselves AND are contradictory. All you need provide are two texts that contradict themselves.

Again, I can't help but point out that the conspicuous absence of even two verses being supplied seems to indicate that there are no significant contradictions whatsoever.

[Bust Nak]

Which texts? You haven't provided a set of contradictory texts. You've explicitly articulated a doctrine from Christianity which is blatantly contradictory to the text,

Contradictory to the text you say? Sounds to me like you know what kind of verses I am referring to, but if I must give example:

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

John 20:28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"?

Because you haven't provided a single one. You have just asserted that these verses exist and that they are contradictory.

Are you trying to tell me you don't know what text are used to support the Trinity?

I don't know which concept you're referring to. The idea here is to confine our concepts to those that actually can be provided from the texts themselves, and there is no mention of the doctrine of the Trinity within any of the biblical texts.

What about Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit?

Or Isaiah 48:16 Come near me and listen to this: From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret; at the time it happens, I am there. And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me, endowed with his Spirit?

Yes, I addressed and refuted that claim as well. You have yet to respond to the points I made.

I thought you were agreeing with me. Perhaps you could rephrase what your objection? What did you mean by "what is silly isn't the blatant contradiction within the texts themselves, but..." If not an acknowledgment that there is a blatant contradiction within the texts themselves?

The fact that this topic isn't about hypothetical verses in the biblical texts. The topic is explicitly about verses that actually exist in the texts themselves AND are contradictory. All you need provide are two texts that contradict themselves. Again, I can't help but point out that the conspicuous absence of even two verses being supplied seems to indicate that there are no significant contradictions whatsoever.

I didn't think it was necessary given how commonly known the verses are. Did I expect too much? You even gave your own examples re: John 10:30.

[JehovahsWitness]

1 Corinthians 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

John 20:28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"?

1 CORINTHIANS 8:5-6 (ESV)
5 For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods� and many “lords�— 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Paul explained that the title or designation "Lord" or "God" is not exclusive and indeed many entities in "heaven or on earth" can be thus described. Then in verse [6] he says "for us there is one God, the Father" so evidently the writer is not saying there is one "god" but one that they (believers) recognize as their "Father" arguably the object of their adoration.

It therefore could be argued that Thomas' statement addressing Jesus as his "God" is simply a recognition of one of the "other" god's that Paul recognized existed but was not necessarily the object of worship, at least the worship of Paul and his Corinthian readership ("for us")?

Paul in the first text explictly states there are many gods other than the Father, and Thomas recognizes another God other than the Father. Where is the contradiction?

So the question is: Is a "contradiction" two statements that can be taken to exist in opposition with each other or is a "contradiction" two statements for which there is no harmonizing explanation is possible? Does something remain a contradiction because an explanation is not appealing or because there can *be* no explanation?

#QUESTION: How many Gods are mentioned in the bible?

In the bible the word "GOD" - is used of anyone (professedly) MIGHTY, whether truly so or not, and is applied not only to the true God, but to false gods, magistrates, judges**, angels, prophets, etc., (see Exod. 7:1; 15:11; 21:6; 22:8, 9;...Ps. 8:5; 45:6; 82:1, 6; 97:7, 9...John 1:1; 10:33, 34, 35; 20:28...)

Thus the bible states "For even though there are those who are called “gods,� whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods� and many “lords,� 6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him;" -- 1 Corinthians 8: 16

"Jesus replied, "It is written in your own Scriptures that God said to certain leaders of the people, 'I say, YOU ARE GODS!'" -- John 10: 34 New Living Translation (©2007)

“On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn of both people and animals, and I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt." -- Exodus 12:12:


HEBREW:

god 430 �ֱלֹהִי� [’elohiym /el·o·heem/] n m p. Plural of 433; TWOT 93c; GK 466; 2606 occurrences; AV translates as “God� 2346 times, “god� 244 times, “judge� five times, “GOD� once, “goddess� twice, “great� twice, “mighty� twice, “angels� once, “exceeding� once, “God-ward + 4136� once, and “godly� once. 1 (plural). 1a rulers, judges. 1b divine ones. 1c angels. 1d gods. 2 (plural intensive—singular meaning). 2a god, goddess. 2b godlike one. 2c works or special possessions of God. 2d the (true) God. 2e God. -- Young's Analytical Concordance of the Bible, Eerdmans, 1978 Reprint, "Hints and Helps to Bible Interpretation


ONE ALMIGHTY GOD

The title of ALMIGHTY however is uniquely applied to the Creator JEHOVAH (YHWH) and it is this sense that we are to understand scriptures such as Deuteronomy 6: 4 "The Lord our God is one Lord.". So while there are others beings (real or imaginary) that are identified as "gods" or "lords" there is in actual fact one Almighty Creator of all things worthy of worship.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 143 by shnarkle]

Once again what seems to be becoming more and more apparant is that there really are no significant contradictions or inconsistencies in these texts at all. Given that the most common examples are all from external sources, one can't help wondering why this claim was made in the first place. It would seem the contradictions are from the religious rather than the texts they refere, as well as the skeptics who have been hoodwinked by these mysteries propagated by the religious.

Once again what seems to be becoming more and more apparent is that there really are significant contradictions and inconsistencies in these texts. Given that the most common examples are all from the Bible itself, one can't help wondering why anyone would think the Bible was true in the first place. It would seem the contradictions are from both the religious trying to make inconsistent text make sense, and the texts they refer to, as well as the vigilant attention of skeptics who have not been hoodwinked by these mysteries propagated by the religious.

[JehovahsWitness]

What about Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit?

Or Isaiah 48:16 Come near me and listen to this: From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret; at the time it happens, I am there. And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me, endowed with his Spirit?

Can you clarify what is perceived as contradictory in the above two verses?