What is "The Good News?"

EBA · Post by **EBA** » Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:06 pm

Tell me, what is "The Good News?"

Peace be to all.

Checkpoint · Post by **Checkpoint** » Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:22 am

Elijah John wrote: [Replying to post 145 by Checkpoint]

Those statements are towards the end of Jesus ministry, when it was clear to him he would be executed. Where are similar statements in bulk of his ministry, the Sermon on the Mount, the Parables?

That's important, because it's a matter of emphasis. Jesus emphasized the merciful Father, not his impending sacrifice.

Jesus emphasised many things throughout his ministry. He said whatever was appropriate at the time. He knew from the start "he would be executed".

Is it wise to forumlate whole doctrines based on a few passing statments attributed to Jesus?

They were not "passing statements", but perfect illustrations and applications of what he was teaching and what was being remembered at the time.
..

Can't prove it at this point, but I think those were theological additions put on Jesus lips by NT authors.

Also, those statements are open to interpretation, and do not necessarily mean Pauline, blood-ransom atonement.

Yes, you can't prove your whole thesis but instead tell us what you think.

In the process you question, discount or dismiss whatever verses or passages saying anything contrary to what you have given your stamp of approval to.

Is it wise to formulate a whole doctrine based on such methods?

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Sat Jun 02, 2018 6:18 am

Checkpoint wrote:

In the process you question, discount or dismiss whatever verses or passages saying anything contrary to what you have given your stamp of approval to.

Is it wise to formulate a whole doctrine based on such methods?

Don't it beat all, that is exactly what conventional, Trinitarian apologists do. Either ingore inconvenient verses and passages completely, attempt to change the plain meaning of the passage or de-emphasize those inconvenient passages.

For example, how many Evangelical Churches which preach Pauline doctrines, ignore Paul's teaching about allowing women to speak in Church and actually have women Pastors?* At least JW are consistent on this matter.

Another example, Jesus describes the Golden Rule as "the Law and the Prophets" underscoring it's importance.

Where is that, or any other encapsulated teaching of Jesus in the Creed?

Instead, we have docrines about Jesus recited every Sunday in liturgical Churches, which is the bulk of orthodox (small "o" ) Christianity.

No, the Good news is not that "Jesus died to pay for our sins". Jesus didn't preach that. He preached the mercy and expansive love of the Father. That is different, and incompatible with blood-atonement. The Good Father offers mercy to the contrite, and does not need to be appeased with blood. (Hosea 6.6, the Lord's prayer, the Beattitudes, the Parables).

But apparently there is no room for such passages in the Church's Creeds and doctrines..

Also, Jesus taught "forgive as we forgive". And taught that we woudn't be forgiven if we don't forgive others. He made no exception for the "bloodwashed".

Why isn't Matthew 6.15 an Evangelical "memory verse"? Because it is inconvenient and contradicts the notion of blood atonement.

You (collective "you") ignore it because it ignores something "you have given your stamp of approval to".

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*Don't get me wrong, I am not against women preachers, I am against some of Paul's teachings and theology.

shnarkle · Post by **shnarkle** » Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:13 am

JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 148 by shnarkle]

We (Jehovah's Witnesses) believe the good news is that the day is coming when all diseases (including that of Cancer) will no longer cause suffering and death and that everyone will be able to live long happy and health lives!

JW

That's not what the JW's who visited me believed, and to some degree I had to agree with them. Before that day comes, they said "the wicked will be removed" Well, that's what sin does. It removes those who transgress God's law so while they saw it as something that wuold happen in the future, I can see it as something that has been happening probably from almost the beginning.

The latest evidence shows that cancer isn't a disease, but a marker indicating an unhealthy balance in the body. The thing about the Mosaic law is that it makes one more aware of not only the sin in one's life and the world around us, but the antidote as well. Ignorance is bliss though so the rest can simply pretend that everything will just fix itself some time in the future. I call it believing the lie while I say it.

shnarkle · Post by **shnarkle** » Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:32 am

Elijah John wrote: To all who believe and teach that the "Good News" (the Gospel) is that Jesus died to "pay for" our sins, where in his ministry did Jesus himself teach this?

Do you think any good Jew would have listened to him if he actually taught:

"Blessed are the bloodwashed, for they will receive mercy and inherit eternal life"

"Blessed are those who believe I will die to pay for their sins".

Where did Jesus tie the notion of his impending crucifixion being some sort of an atonement to his proclamations of the arrival of the Kingdom of God? Did the Isaiah scroll portion from which he read at the start of his ministry contain any such declaration? How about the Beattitudes at the beginning of his most well known sermon? His Parables?

Could it be that Jesus himself preached a "different" Gospel from Paul's Gospel? And that Paul shifted the focus from Jesus own Gospel centered on preaching simple repentance and a return to the merciful Father, to a theological interpretation of his unexpected death on the cross as a "blood atonement"?

If so, ironically, it is Paul who preached the "different Gospel".

I don't think Paul's gospel is essentially any different than what Jesus preached. Paul's emphasis seems to more about grace through the faith of Christ, and the resulting repentance which leads to a new life. Christ taught self denial, and Paul says the same thing in a daily sacrifice. It is simply saying the exact same thing a different way. The crucifixion is a potent metaphor for what is required in order to truly engage in this daily self sacrifice. The narratives illustrate the teaching

Forgiveness requires a type of payment. When someone wrongs you, or commits some sort of trespass against you, if they don't repent and make amends, it is you who must "pay" by your act of forgiveness. The teaching is to turn the other cheek, seek the righteousness of God who forgives those who have a heart for forgiveness.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:53 am

shnarkle wrote:
Before that day comes, they said "the wicked will be removed" ....

Yes, that is what Jehovah's Witnesses believe (see below)

PROVERBS 2:22
As for the wicked, they will be cut off from the earth, And the treacherous will be torn away from it.

PSALMS 37:10, 11
Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more; You will look at where they were, And they will not be there. But the meek will possess the earth, and they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.

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shnarkle · Post by **shnarkle** » Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:32 am

JehovahsWitness wrote:
shnarkle wrote:
Before that day comes, they said "the wicked will be removed" ....
Yes, that is what Jehovah's Witnesses believe (see below)

PROVERBS 2:22
As for the wicked, they will be cut off from the earth, And the treacherous will be torn away from it.

PSALMS 37:10, 11
Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more; You will look at where they were, And they will not be there. But the meek will possess the earth, and they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.
Yep, and "just a little while longer" came and went for those who are able to recieve the kingdom. The meek do possess the earth. The earth is overflowing with an overabundance of gifts from God, but only those who have left the worldly system of things are able to receive it fully. Those who have chosen to remain in the antithesis of God's system are stuck playing with Mammon's monopoly money which can only create scarcity. It's happening right now in front of your eyes. They're starting to raise interest rates. They're turning off the tap, and those who have been playing their game instead of playing by God's rules, are going to get squashed. It's called learning God's lessons the hard way, or in biblical terminology "curses".

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:57 pm

[Replying to post 153 by shnarkle]

Yes, Paul's ethics overlapped with those of Jesus. But the way I see it is that their emphasis was totally different when it came to the theology of forgiveness.

Paul emphasized the importance of Christ's death and resurrection and it's role in the dynamic of forgiveness.

Jesus preached the simple mecy of the Father, based on repentance. That was his emphasis in the Lord's prayer, the Beattitudes, and the Parables. His repeated emphasis, the love and mercy of the Father.

Jesus, if he mentioned it at all, did not emphasize the "blood". That was Paul's emphasis.

tam · Post by **tam** » Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:08 pm

[Replying to post 156 by Elijah John]

Jesus, if he mentioned it at all, did not emphasize the "blood".

He did:

This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. Matt 26:28

Peace to you,

your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:08 pm

JehovahsWitness wrote:
shnarkle wrote:
Before that day comes, they said "the wicked will be removed" ....
Yes, that is what Jehovah's Witnesses believe (see below)

PROVERBS 2:22
As for the wicked, they will be cut off from the earth, And the treacherous will be torn away from it.

PSALMS 37:10, 11
Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more; You will look at where they were, And they will not be there. But the meek will possess the earth, and they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.
Yep, and "just a little while longer" came and went for those who are able to recieve the kingdom.

Yes well we Jehovah's Witnesses have our own interpretation of the expression "and just a little while longer" that is different from you.

Each to his own,

JW

shnarkle · Post by **shnarkle** » Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:14 pm

Elijah John wrote: [Replying to post 153 by shnarkle]

Yes, Paul's ethics overlapped with those of Jesus. But the way I see it is that their emphasis was totally different when it came to the theology of forgiveness.

Paul emphasized the importance of Christ's death and resurrection and it's role in the dynamic of forgiveness.

Jesus preached the simple mecy of the Father, based on repentance. That was his emphasis in the Lord's prayer, the Beattitudes, and the Parables. His repeated emphasis, the love and mercy of the Father.

Jesus, if he mentioned it at all, did not emphasize the "blood". That was Paul's emphasis.

The gospel narratives are an illustration of Paul's gospel. The blood is a metonymy for the sacrifice which his a metonymy for his death; it's a double metonymy, or a metalepsis. The gospels illustrate the very thing Paul is preaching. The only difference is that Paul is preaching a crucified and resurrected Christ whereas the gospel narratives present the teaching, then illustrate the death of the old man, the carnal nature with a new way of living being presented. One where Christ is evident in their midst. This was his teaching, and it only comes about through the death of the flesh, or for living for or through the flesh. Paul preaches it, while the gospel writers illustrate it along with the teachings which reinforce the illustrations.

In both cases we see an emphsis on the law followed by an emphsis on forgiveness. Paul's letters, at least when read chronologically; begin with him boasting of his credentials and end with them being case aside as worthless; he has oped for eternal life over his own life. This is the same message of the gospels. Christ comes under the law, and fulfills the law because to fulfill the law in one's heart is to truly live.

I think some people relate to one more than the other. I originally found the gospels more appealing while seeing Paul as quite overbearing and a bit incoherent at times. Sometimes even bordering on obnoxious, condescending, and arrogant. Not anymore. He's completely resigned himself to the gospel message and abandoned his life to Christ. His education in the law took him quite far, but his revelation is inspired. The love and mercy can only be seen through Christ's self denial. Christ promotes the father while Paul points out that it is evident in Christ.