How can Jesus have been betrayed if he knew ?

[dio9]

[shnarkle]

Of course. He wouldn't have been decieved it he didn't think what he was doing was for the best.

The best for him maybe, I don't think that Judas believed betraying his Master was the best thing for his Master.[

In any case the bible doesn't say explicitly what Judas motives were.

JW

The bible points out that Jesus himself instructs Judas to go and carry out his plan. Jesus himself says that one of them has to betray him. That's the plan! That's the plan that Jesus is telling his disciples must be carried out by one of them. Judas volunteers for the job. The text explicilty states that he also is motivated by 30 pieces of silver. If there's any betrayal there, it's in his desire to make money on the side. Jesus' plan didn't include turning this into a plan to make money.

[JehovahsWitness]

Of course. He wouldn't have been decieved it he didn't think what he was doing was for the best.

The best for him maybe, I don't think that Judas believed betraying his Master was the best thing for his Master.[

In any case the bible doesn't say explicitly what Judas motives were.

JW

The bible points out that Jesus himself instructs Judas to go and carry out his plan. Jesus himself says that one of them has to betray him.

Yes I know.

Jesus knew what Judas was up to.


JW

[shnarkle]

Of course. He wouldn't have been decieved it he didn't think what he was doing was for the best.

The best for him maybe, I don't think that Judas believed betraying his Master was the best thing for his Master.[

In any case the bible doesn't say explicitly what Judas motives were.

JW

The bible points out that Jesus himself instructs Judas to go and carry out his plan. Jesus himself says that one of them has to betray him.

Yes I know.

Jesus knew what Judas was up to.


JW

The point is that Judas did what Jesus told him to do, and in fact explicitly does show us what his motives were, e.g. 30 pieces of silver. The fact that Jesus told him to get on with it reinforces in his mind that what he is doing is going to be a win/winn for everyone. After all, it's what Jesus is telling him to do! Judas is doing what he himself wants and it is right in line with what Jesus wants as well. For Judas, he can't lose. What you're ignoring is the fact that Judas didn't think Jesus would be crucified. He believed Jesus was the messiah and would overthrow the government. This is what all Jews believe. When that didn't happen, he tossed the money back and hung himself. How much clearer does the text have to be???

What Judas did was essentially no different than Peter's denial of Christ's impending death. Neither Peter or Judas were operating according to God's plan. They were both operating under their own ideas of what and who the messiah must be. The only difference was that Christ prevented Peter from carrying out his plan because it wasn't in line with God's plan while Judas' plan was an integral piece of the plan. Both Peter and Judas were deceived by Satan. Peter is called Satan while Judas is allowed to be deceived. The betrayer is betrayed by his own betrayal. A brilliantly poignant and horrific piece of poetic justice.

[JehovahsWitness]

The point is that Judas did what Jesus told him to do ...

Yes, I would agree; Jesus told him (paraphrasing) "to get on with it" and Judas did ... get on with it.

It's in the bible.

JW

[FWI]

[Replying to post 1 by dio9]

You make a valid point…

However, I disagree that the Christ was betrayed by Judas. It seems that the religious communities (around the first century C.E.) had bought into the propaganda campaign introduced by the Pharisees. This propaganda campaign is still alive today and has deceived hundreds of millions. The reality is that this lie has become a truth, because of the desire for a scapegoat related to the death of the Christ.

When we review the written materials, the Christ made it clear (to his disciples) that he would be taken and killed. This was a necessity, not a random occurrence. We can also read where the Pharisees were desperate to find a way to eliminate the Christ, but they feared that the people might revolt, if this was done openly.

So, the realistic conclusion is that Judas was chosen by the Christ to perform this task, which he did as requested.

[JehovahsWitness]

Judas was chosen by the Christ to perform this task, which he did as requested.

• So why did Jesus say that whoever betrayed him would be damned?
  
  And why did Judas committ suicide claiming he betrayed innocent blood?

JW

[dio9]

[quote="FWI"]
[Replying to post 1 by dio9]

You make a valid point…

However, I disagree that the Christ was betrayed by Judas. It seems that the religious communities (around the first century C.E.) had bought into the propaganda campaign introduced by the Pharisees. This propaganda campaign is still alive today and has deceived hundreds of millions. The reality is that this lie has become a truth, because of the desire for a scapegoat related to the death of the Christ.

When we review the written materials, the Christ made it clear (to his disciples) that he would be taken and killed. This was a necessity, not a random occurrence. We can also read where the Pharisees were desperate to find a way to eliminate the Christ, but they feared that the people might revolt, if this was done openly.

So, the realistic conclusion is that Judas was chosen by the Christ to perform this task, which he did as requested.[/quote

This point , the propagandizing of the religious community , may have been a big factor in Jesus' death. If the community had believed in Jesus they would have rioted after his arrest. There are some who say Judas represents that propagandized community, Who wanted Jesus dead and it was not Judas but they who betrayed Jesus.

[shnarkle]

Judas was chosen by the Christ to perform this task, which he did as requested.

• So why did Jesus say that whoever betrayed him would be damned?
  
  And why did Judas committ suicide claiming he betrayed innocent blood?

JW

He didn't actually say that. He just said that it would have been better had he not been born. He claimed that he betrayed innocent blood because he realized that he had placed his own plans for the kingdom above God's plan. It isn't really clear that Judas committed suicide. He looks like he might have had some help. If you look at the accounts, it was no ordinary suicide. I think the texts even indicate that the whole city knew about it, and given that there really isn't anything all that noteworthy about some poor Jew committing suicide, his was quite spectacular.

[JehovahsWitness]

it was no ordinary suicide.

Isn't a suicide that isn't an "ordinary" suicide still a suicide?

he realized that he had placed his own plans for the kingdom above God's plan.

What did Judas do that was "above God's plan"?

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 1 by dio9]

How can he be betrayed if he knows he is going to be betrayed?

I don't see the problem. If I say, "I know my wife will cheat on me tonight", and she does, is it not infidelity because I predicted what she would do?

Pretty simple. So why they numerous responses????