Many failed predictions of Jesus return..

[Elijah John]

Matthew 16:27-28 New International Version (NIV)

27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Fathers glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.
28 Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

There have been many failed predictions of the "2nd coming of Christ". Most notably, Charles Taze Russell who predicted Jesus would return in 1914. When he didn't return, the prediction was revised to mean an "invisible return".

For debate, in light of the quoted passage from Matthew, was Jesus the first person to mistakenly predict his return?

How is Jesus prediction different from any of the others who have mistakenly predicted the time of his return?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 166 by Checkpoint]

The arguments presented that attempt to turn scripture itself on its head, substituting pure belief and opinion for genuine Biblical exegesis remind me of nothing so much as Flat Earth arguments and the denial of evolution. When the words of scripture are ignored and impossibly convoluted mental gymnastics are employed to turn 'this' and 'living right now' some future event it demonstrates that the Bible is not really the basis for such beliefs and that words do not actually matter. in this fairytale world 'life means 'death' and 'now' means 'later.'

You unbelievers have a corner on "genuine biblical exegesis"?

I guess black equals white in a "fairytale world".

One in which words are made to mean other than what their actual usage demonstrates, and then added to other unrelated verses to draw inevitably false conclusions.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 167 by Elijah John]

No prophecy has a date? Perhaps, not an exact one. But the time span, the date range given in Matthew 16.27-28 is quite specific. Within the lifetime of Jesus contemporaries. "Some standing here", in Jesus's day, not ours. Not the present readership.

Moving the goalposts.

Verse 28 is quite specific, yes, but what it refers to is an event about to happen to "some standing here"

That event is not the return with angels in judgment, but is described in the subsequent verses.

Verse 27 is also quite specific, but gives no time frame, and shows the reason for the previous verses 24-26.

Not moving the goalposts, but putting it in context.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 167 by Elijah John]

No prophecy has a date? Perhaps, not an exact one. But the time span, the date range given in Matthew 16.27-28 is quite specific. Within the lifetime of Jesus contemporaries. "Some standing here", in Jesus's day, not ours. Not the present readership.

Moving the goalposts.

Verse 28 is quite specific, yes, but what it refers to is an event about to happen to "some standing here".

That event is not the return with angels in judgment, but is described in the subsequent verses.

Verse 27 is also quite specific, but gives no time frame, and shows the reason for the previous verses 24-26.

Not moving the goalposts, but putting it in context.

[Tcg]

We have evidence of at least one person having seen this before he died: John of Patmos. John testified that he was in the spirit on that day - the Lord's Day - when this happened. He DID see this before he died.

But you have no evidence that John of Patmos was present when Jesus made this statement. Beyond that, one person does not equate to the plurality of the statement made. To sum up, one person who probably wasn't even there, does not equal the multiple people Jesus claimed.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 166 by Checkpoint]

The arguments presented that attempt to turn scripture itself on its head, substituting pure belief and opinion for genuine Biblical exegesis remind me of nothing so much as Flat Earth arguments and the denial of evolution. When the words of scripture are ignored and impossibly convoluted mental gymnastics are employed to turn 'this' and 'living right now' some future event it demonstrates that the Bible is not really the basis for such beliefs and that words do not actually matter. in this fairytale world 'life means 'death' and 'now' means 'later.'

You unbelievers have a corner on "genuine biblical exegesis"?

I guess black equals white in a "fairytale world".

One in which words are made to mean other than what their actual usage demonstrates, and then added to other unrelated verses to draw inevitably false conclusions.

That is a good description of what apologists tend to do in cases like this, anything to ignore plain meaning, when plain meaning indicts the notions of perfection and inerrancy of the Bible.

Or the perfection of Jesus, for that matter.

[Elijah John]

Matthew 16:27-28 New International Version (NIV)

27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Fathers glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.
28 Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

There have been many failed predictions of the "2nd coming of Christ". Most notably, Charles Taze Russell who predicted Jesus would return in 1914. When he didn't return, the prediction was revised to mean an "invisible return".

For debate, in light of the quoted passage from Matthew, was Jesus the first person to mistakenly predict his return?

How is Jesus prediction different from any of the others who have mistakenly predicted the time of his return?

How sure are we that this passage refers to Jesus return, and not His Transfiguration on the Mount? After all, it was in the very next chapter...

Good question. Because there were no angels or judgment (rewards and punishiments) in the Transfirguration. But those were things that Jesus alluded to in verse 27, linked to verse 28.

[tam]

Peace to you,

We have evidence of at least one person having seen this before he died: John of Patmos. John testified that he was in the spirit on that day - the Lord's Day - when this happened. He DID see this before he died.

But you have no evidence that John of Patmos was present when Jesus made this statement.

He is a disciple of Christ. Christ was speaking to His disciples when He said that.

Beyond that, one person does not equate to the plurality of the statement made.

Which is why I said that we have evidence of at least one person who saw this.

The NT does not record the entirety of the experiences and events of that time.

To sum up, one person who probably wasn't even there, does not equal the multiple people Jesus claimed.

Since His disciples followed Him, and John is one of His disciples, it is more likely that John was present than that he was not present.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Tcg]

He is a disciple of Christ. Christ was speaking to His disciples when He said that.

John of Patmos was not a disciple of Christ.

Which is why I said that we have evidence of at least one person who saw this.

No, you don't. Even if you did, one doesn't add up to a plurality of people.

The NT does not record the entirety of the experiences and events of that time.

Then you have no grounds to make claims that you have no evidence of.

Since His disciples followed Him, and John is one of His disciples, it is more likely that John was present than that he was not present.

John of Patmos was not one of his disciples.

[tam]

Peace to you,

He is a disciple of Christ. Christ was speaking to His disciples when He said that.

John of Patmos was not a disciple of Christ.

And your evidence for this?

Which is why I said that we have evidence of at least one person who saw this.

No, you don't. Even if you did, one doesn't add up to a plurality of people.

The NT does not record the entirety of the experiences and events of that time.

Then you have no grounds to make claims that you have no evidence of.

John (of Patmos) saw Christ coming in His Kingdom (that is what he testified to).

John (of Patmos) is a disciple of Christ.

Speaking to His disciples, Christ said that some standing here would not taste death before they SAW Him coming in His Kingdom.


The above may not be proof that some want, but it is evidence.


(I realize that there are other interpretations on what this is referring to (such as the transfiguration). Regardless, John testifies to having SEEN this - the actual event - before he died.)



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 175 by Elijah John]

Tart wrote

How sure are we that this passage refers to Jesus return, and not His Transfiguration on the Mount? After all, it was in the very next chapter...

You replied

Good question. Because there were no angels or judgment (rewards and punishiments) in the Transfirguration. But those were things that Jesus alluded to in verse 27, linked to verse 28.

This is really the key point at issue, on this thread.

That is, which verses are linked to which verses, and whether or not verse 27 is linked to verse 28.