Teachings that transcend the teacher.

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:29 am

If Jesus was indeed wrong about the timing of his predicted return, that would indeed put a dent on the notion of his perfection and Divinity.

And presumably the notion that Jesus himself is the "alpha and the omega" the first and the last.

Or that "before Abraham was, "I AM".

In light of this, what teachings of Jesus do survive and still apply? What teachings of Jesus transcend the teacher?

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:32 pm

jgh7 wrote: If Jesus is imperfect, then Christianity would be a lie and its teachings would be no different than that of a motivational speaker's for me.

Part of the essence of Christianity is the teaching of Love of God and neighbor. Jesus considered this the "Law and the Prophets", in other words, the essence.

If Jesus was not perfect about predicting his return, would this teaching about love of God and neighbor also be a "lie"?

How so?

jgh7 · Post by **jgh7** » Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:12 pm

Elijah John wrote:
jgh7 wrote: If Jesus is imperfect, then Christianity would be a lie and its teachings would be no different than that of a motivational speaker's for me.
Part of the essence of Christianity is the teaching of Love of God and neighbor. Jesus considered this the "Law and the Prophets", in other words, the essence.

If Jesus was not perfect about predicting his return, would this teaching about love of God and neighbor also be a "lie"?

How so?

Christianity literally falls apart if Jesus lied. What else is a lie? Did he feed the five thousand and then the four thousand afterward? Did he cure people with leprosy, born blind, mute, paralyzed, with withered extremities, with blood discharges that all doctors failed to cure? Did he walk on water, calm the seas and the storms? Did he resurrect Lazarus and Jairus' twelve year old daughter? Did the Father resurrect him on the third day? Did he have authority to forgive sins?

If you assume one lie of Jesus, what else do you assume? Everything falls apart and it becomes a religion of ones own opinion and ultimately creation rather than one of trusting Jesus and his apostles.

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:56 pm

jgh7 wrote:
Elijah John wrote:
jgh7 wrote: If Jesus is imperfect, then Christianity would be a lie and its teachings would be no different than that of a motivational speaker's for me.
Part of the essence of Christianity is the teaching of Love of God and neighbor. Jesus considered this the "Law and the Prophets", in other words, the essence.

If Jesus was not perfect about predicting his return, would this teaching about love of God and neighbor also be a "lie"?

How so?
Christianity literally falls apart if Jesus lied. What else is a lie? Did he feed the five thousand and then the four thousand afterward? Did he cure people with leprosy, born blind, mute, paralyzed, with withered extremities, with blood discharges that all doctors failed to cure? Did he walk on water, calm the seas and the storms? Did he resurrect Lazarus and Jairus' twelve year old daughter? Did the Father resurrect him on the third day? Did he have authority to forgive sins?

If you assume one lie of Jesus, what else do you assume? Everything falls apart and it becomes a religion of ones own opinion and ultimately creation rather than one of trusting Jesus and his apostles.

What if Jesus was mistaken not lying. Does everything still "fall apart"? Including the importance of loving God and neighbor?

What saves people in this present day and age. The reported miracles performed long ago? Or the Father's love and mercy, as Jesus preached.

Even Paul said "the greatest of these is love". Love, not miracles.

The miracles, if they ever actually occured, are superflous, and subservient to ethics and Truth, love and mecy.

bluethread · Post by **bluethread** » Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:19 pm

Elijah John

The miracles, if they ever actually occured, are superflous, and subservient to ethics and Truth, love and mercy.

I don't think that superfluous is the right term. They are for the purpose of attracting attention or confirmation. As long as we are attentive and need no confirmation, then they are unnecessary. Yeshua does say that it is wicked and adulterous generation that constantly asks for confirmaton and reassurance. Yeshua's point was that we should judge things by their results and not look for excuses. The Torah tests are; is it in accordance with HaTorah and does it come to pass. Moshe', also, warns us against being persuaded by miracles alone, even if what is predicted does come to pass.

jgh7 · Post by **jgh7** » Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:23 pm

[Replying to post 13 by Elijah John]

Yes everything still falls apart in Christianity. God's one and only begotten Son does not make mistakes because he can only do as he sees his Father do. So for him to make a mistake means God is mistaken as well.

John 5:19
Jesus gave them this answer: Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

-----

If one believes Jesus makes mistakes, then they ultimately reject who he claimed to be and in doing so reject the one who sent him.

Luke 10:16
"Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me."

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:44 pm

Elijah John wrote: The miracles, if they ever actually occured, are superflous, and subservient to ethics and Truth, love and mecy.

QUESTION Why did Jesus perform miracles?

Jesus of course performed miracles in response to his genuine concern for human suffering and as such his miracles were a demonstration of his love for people. But it is, I believe, also important to recognize that the miracles of Jesus were also a means to prove his Messiahship and provide verifiable proof that his promises would come true.

Jesus promised that those with faith in him would be resurrected back to life, even if they died. His miracles demonstrated he had such power.

He promised that "real life" (free of sickness) and indicated he could eliminate the cause of sickness - Jesus proved he could cure human illnesses and diseases.

The Messianic promises paint a picture of a world free of hunger, he provided proof he could do this by miraculously feeding thousands.

The Edenic promise spoke ultimately of Satan being destroyed, Jesus demonstrated his power over demnic forces.

In short, Jesus' miracles provided verifiable, visible proof he had the power to control the elements, cure all sickness, eliminate hungry, raise the dead and conquer Satan. He was asking his followers to have faith that he would do this in the future, but not a blind faith, he showed them what he could do, and asked them to believe that as the risen Messiah he would return in kingdom power to judge all humanity and finally do what he had demonstrated on a small scale for just 3 years in a tiny corner of the earth on a global scale for all humanity.

I believe, reducing the miracle accounts to exaggerations, errors and works of fiction undermines the faith Jesus was asking his followers to have in his promises, indeed it removes any bases for believing Jesus was the Messiah at all and as such justifies the actions of the Pharisees and religious leaders that condemned him to death for false claims of divine power.

JW

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Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:44 pm

[Replying to post 16 by JehovahsWitness]

The claim that Jesus is the Messiah is dubious. He never ushered in the Messianic age the first time around, and was wrong about the timing of his "2nd" time around.

I realize we disagree on that. So let me ask you this. What do you think are more important, timeless and believable? His teachings that it is good to love God and neighbor, or the stories of him walking on water?

If Jesus or the New Testament were was wrong about anything, what survives? Anything? Or are you a believer in the slipperly slope as well, and can admit to no imprefection in either Jesus or the Bible?

So what survives, his ethical teachings and teachings about the merciful Father Jehovah, or accounts of his miracles? Which do not happen today with the exception perhaps of healings done in his name.

After all, when has anyone in this day and age walked on water? With the expception, perhaps of the fictional character of Chauncy Gardener, in the story "Being There".

And Jesus said his followers would do "greater miracles". Miracles over nature included?