Is the Bible the inerrant Word of God?

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:40 am

For those who claim that the Bible is the "inerrant Word of God" why do you believe this?

Seems to me the arguments to support this belief are usually circular. As in "The Bible is inerrant because it is the Word of God". And evidence that the Bible is the Word of God?" Because the Bible is without error or contradiction", i.e. inerrant.

Consider this OP a challenge. Give the skeptic a better argument to convince them that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God than the usual circular argument.

Why do you believe and why should the skeptic believe that the Bible is the "inerrant Word of God"?

Break out of the circle.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:16 pm

Elijah John wrote: No contradictions to what we know of scienctific, physical reality. No theological or moral contradictions. No failed prophecies, etc.

The problem is what we know about scientific realities is constantly changing; we once "knew" the earth had to be flat (because if it was a globe things would fall off the bottom), turns out we were wrong. We once "knew" that massive heavy "ships" could not fly, turns out we didn't know enough about aeordynamics, we now call those massive flying ships planes. Learned men and woman admit we don't know a fraction about the laws that govern the universe, so basing the bible's truthfulness on what "we know" about scientific realities, is quite precarious and some might say somewhat presumptuous.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:19 pm

Elijah John wrote: No theological or moral contradictions. No failed prophecies, etc.

How are any of those things not simply a matter of personal interpretation? Theology is entirely subjective, morals are not universal and prophecies can be considered successful or failed depending on how they are interpreted.

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:49 pm

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Elijah John wrote: No theological or moral contradictions. No failed prophecies, etc.
How are any of those things not simply a matter of personal interpretation? Theology is entirely subjective, morals are not universal and prophecies can be considered successful or failed depending on how they are interpreted.

Yet don't it beat all, most conventional Chrsitians consider Paul's subjective theology, "sacred Sricpture".

Clearly, Paul differs with Jesus and most if not all of the OT writers on the nature of the Law. The law is celebrated in the Hebrew Bible as life-affirming. With Paul, the Law is only (or primarily) for the purpose of demonstrating our sinfulness and highlighting our need for a Savior. Prosecutorial, not redemptive in and of itself.

Morals? The acceptance of the keeping and beating of slaves contradicts the Golden Rule. Unless of course, the slave is not human and just "property".

Is that passage from Exodus from God? Or is it the cultural and primitive bias of "Moses".

Do you really want to defend that passage, Exodus 21.20-21 as being Divine in origin? After all, "it's in the Bible".

Since we can probably both agree that the Bible didn't simply drop from a cloud with a Heavenly voice proclaiming "this is my Word", what makes you so certain that the Bible is the "Word of God" in it's entirely, and in every detail?

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:39 pm

Elijah John wrote: Clearly, Paul differs with Jesus and most if not all of the OT writers on the nature of the Law.

Can you demonstrate this?

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:53 pm

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Elijah John wrote: Clearly, Paul differs with Jesus and most if not all of the OT writers on the nature of the Law.
Can you demonstrate this?

Christ was asked "what must I do to to inherit eternal life". Jesus answered, "if you would enter life, keep the commansments".

By contrast, Paul said "by works fo the Law no man is justified" or words to that effect.

Seems to me it is a challenge to reconcile the two divergent statements without resorting to verbal or theological gymnastics.

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:59 pm

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Elijah John wrote: No theological or moral contradictions. No failed prophecies, etc.
How are any of those things not simply a matter of personal interpretation? Theology is entirely subjective, morals are not universal and prophecies can be considered successful or failed depending on how they are interpreted.

So can you demonstrate that the Bible is indeed the infallible Word of God in every detail, including the slave beating verse Exodus 21.20-21.

Do you consider human beings to be "property" like "Moses" did? And that it was ever OK to beat them half-to-death?

These are the kind of verses you must defend if you claim that the Bible is perfect in every detail, verse.

And can you demonstrate why you believe the Bible in it's entirety is the infallible Word of God...without resorting to circular reasoning?

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Thu Jun 28, 2018 4:11 am

Elijah John wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote:
Elijah John wrote: Clearly, Paul differs with Jesus and most if not all of the OT writers on the nature of the Law.
Can you demonstrate this?
Christ was asked "what must I do to to inherit eternal life". Jesus answered, "if you would enter life, keep the commansments".

By contrast, Paul said "by works fo the Law no man is justified" or words to that effect.

Seems to me it is a challenge to reconcile the two divergent statements without resorting to verbal or theological gymnastics.

Please explain without verbiage and theological gymnastics what both Jesus and Paul meant and why the two statements are contradictory. You have offered no explanation only your conclusion.

Who was Jesus speaking to? What us your reasoning to extrapolate this statement to applying to all humans for all time? What were the circumstances? What did Paul mean by works and why do you equate justification with eternal life?

It seems to me a you will not be able to actually provide any argumentation without verbal gymnastics but feel fre to prove me wrong.

JW

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:16 pm

[Replying to post 16 by JehovahsWitness]

Nice try attempting to shift the burden. Sorry, the two statements plainly contradict. The burden is on the apologist to demonstrate how they do not.

But I guess that is part of what the "science" of apologetics is all about. Engaging in linguistic and theological sleight of hand in order to attempt to reconcile obvious contradiction. Theological, thematic and/or linguistic contradiction.

So I ask you again. How do you or the apologist reconcile the two contradictory statements.

Other than saying "no they don't". If you hold that position, then show us how the two statements do not contradict and are, in fact, in harmony.

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:23 pm

From post # 12

Elijah John wrote: Morals? The acceptance of the keeping and beating of slaves contradicts the Golden Rule. Unless of course, the slave is not human and just "property".

Is that passage from Exodus from God? Or is it the cultural and primitive bias of "Moses".

Do you really want to defend that passage, Exodus 21.20-21 as being Divine in origin? After all, "it's in the Bible".

Since we can probably both agree that the Bible didn't simply drop from a cloud with a Heavenly voice proclaiming "this is my Word", what makes you so certain that the Bible is the "Word of God" in it's entirely, and in every detail?

"JehovahsWitness". Since you seem to hold the position that the Bible is the infallible Word of God in every detail, then it seems to me that you need to defend even troublesome passages such as this. So far, in this thread you have not.

Would you like to take this opportunity to attempt to defend this particular detail of the Bible as something "infallible" and from God?

Do you think it was "Moses" or God who considered human beings to be "property" and as such gave permission to beat them half-to-death? (Exodus 21.20-21)

Please, answer the question.

Clownboat · Post by **Clownboat** » Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:54 am

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Elijah John wrote: Clearly, Paul differs with Jesus and most if not all of the OT writers on the nature of the Law.

Can you demonstrate this?
Sure thing:

Rom 13:12 Paul says: the night is far gone, the day is at hand.
Luke 21:8 Jesus Says: Take heed that you are not led astray, for many will come in my name saying, the time is at hand! Do not go after them.
It's almost like Jesus was warning us about Paul.

Rom 14:9 Paul says: For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
Luke 20:38 Jesus says: Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for all live to him.
Lord of the dead if you ask Paul, not Lord of the dead if you ask Jesus.

Rom 13:9 Paul says: The commandments, you shall not commit adultrery, you shall not kill, you shall not steal, you shall not covet, and any other commandments, are summed up in this sentence, "you shall love your neighbor as yourself."
Matt 22:37-39 Jesus says: And he said to him, you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. [38] This is the great and first commandment. [39] And a second is like it, you shall love your neighbor as yourself.
Paul highlights loving your neighbor. Jesus highlights loving the Lord your God.

Rom 9:15-16 +18 Paul says: For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." [16] So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy. [18] So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills.
Matt 5:7 Jesus says: Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.
Paul claims that God will have mercy on whom he has mercy. Jesus shares with us that the merciful will obtain mercy.

Eph 1:7 Paul says: In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace.
Rom 4:25 Paul says: who was put to death for our trespasses and raised for our justification.
Matt 6:14-15 Jesus says: For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you, [15] but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Pauls says you need to accept the sacrifice of Jesus to be redeemed (compensate for the faults). Jesus claims that if you forgive others, God will forgive you too.

Rom 3:24 + 28 Paul says: they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, [28] For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.
Rom 5:9 Paul says: Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
Matt 12:37 Jesus says: for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.
More of Paul making this about the sacrifice if Jesus. Jesus on the other hand claims that we will be justified by our words.

Rom 6:23 Paul says: For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal live in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Matt 19:29 Jesus says: And every one who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name's sake, will receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.
Paul once again makes this about the death of Jesus. Jesus on the other hand alludes to a very different way to receive eternal life and does not mention human sacrifice.

2 Cor 8:21 Paul says: for we aim at what is honorable not only in the Lord's sight but also in the sight of men.
Luke 16:15 Jesus says: But he said to them, You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts, for what is exaled among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
Paul, be honorable in the sight of men.
Jesus, what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God.

Rom 2:12 Paul says: All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.
John 12:48 Jesus says: He who rejects me and does not receive my sayings has a judge, the word that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day.
Paul says you will be judged by the law. Jesus says you will be judged by the words he has spoken.

1 Cor 4:15 Paul says: For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
Matt 23:9 Jesus says: And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.
Paul says to call him father, Jesus says to call no man on earth your father.

Rom 10:4 Paul says: For Christ is the end of the law, that every one who has faith may be justified.
Matt 5:17 Jesus says: Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets, I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them.
Paul said that Christ is the end of the law. Jesus said he did not come to abolish the law.

1 Cor 12:28 Paul says: And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third, teachers.
Eph 4:11 Paul says: And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers,
1st Tim 2:7 Paul says: For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
Matt 23:8 Jesus says: But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren.
John 10:16 Jesus says: And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold, I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one pastor (shepherd).
It's like Paul is justifying creating a church while Jesus tells us that we only have one teacher (God).

1 Cor 4:15 Paul says: For though you have countless leaders in Christ
Matt 23:10 Jesus says: Neither be called leaders, for you have one leader,
More of the same? Paul justifying the creation of a church, and Jesus sticks to the idea that the kinddom of heaven is within us.

1 Cor 5:7 Paul says: For Christ, our pachal lamb, has been sacrificed.
Eph 5:2 Paul says: And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
Matt9:13 Jesus says: Go and learn what this means, 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice'.
Paul, again all about the sacrifice of Jesus. Jesus claiming that sacrifice is not desired.

How is Paul different than a Joseph Smith?
Paul: Seriously, I had a vision.
Joseph Smith: Seriously, I found golden plates.
All it takes is to put your faith into either of these guys, right?