Evangelicals and Trinitarians

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:06 am

Jesus said:

After this manner therefore pray ye:
Our Father which art in heaven hallowed be thy name
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done.
in earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
And lead us not into tempation, but deliver us from evil: for thine
is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

I understand that many do not pray this prayer verbatim, and perhaps this was not Jesus intention. (after this manner therefore pray ye)

But do Evangelicals and other Trinitarians pray after this manner? Do they use the Lord's prayer even as a model for prayer?

After hearing many spontaneous and extemporaneous Evangelical prayers, I always hear "in Jesus name we pray". But seldom (if ever) do I hear any reference to the Father's name at all, in Evangelical prayer.

Why is that?

If one omits any reference to the name of the Father, is one praying as Jesus taught?

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:07 pm

Elijah John wrote:
And unfortunately, the prohibition led to the conflation of "Lord" (master) with "LORD" (YHVH). And it conveniently served the purpose of Jesus-worship.

Here's another creepy factoid.

Baal was a title and honorific meaning "lord".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal

The more things change the more they stay the same.

"They intend to make my people forget my name by the dreams they relate to one another, just as their fathers forgot my name because of Baʹal [LORD]." Jer 23:27.

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:13 pm

Manasseh "rebuilt the high places that his father Hez·e·kiʹah had destroyed, and he set up altars to Baʹal [LORD] and made a sacred pole [Cross], just as Aʹhab the king of Israel had done." 2 Kings 21:3

Today's worship is so much like the old worship it's scary.

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:41 pm

[Replying to post 8 by bluethread]

Agreed that Jesus does not state the Name, but he does allude to it. And it is reasonable to conclude that one should at least remember the name of God in prayer, the name of the Father, no mention of the name of the Son. At least not in this model prayer.

If one wants to combine the teachings of "John's" Jesus, with the teaching of the Synoptic Jesus and hallow the name of the Father while concluding "in Jesus name we pray", all well and good. But do you think that is what Jesus actually intended?

My point and the point of this thread is to point out that Evangelicals tend only to hallow the name of Jesus in prayer, and often neglect the name of the Father.

Do we agree that the Father has an actual name, according to the Hebrew Bible (what other name is used almost 7000 times?) and that name is supreme?

What other name but YHVH is the basis of so many Theophonic names, such as "Elijah, Jerimiah, Isaiah, and even Yahshua (Jesus/Joshua)?

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:51 pm

2timothy316 wrote:
Elijah John wrote:
And unfortunately, the prohibition led to the conflation of "Lord" (master) with "LORD" (YHVH). And it conveniently served the purpose of Jesus-worship.
Here's another creepy factoid.

Baal was a title and honorific meaning "lord".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal

The more things change the more they stay the same.

"They intend to make my people forget my name by the dreams they relate to one another, just as their fathers forgot my name because of Baʹal [LORD]." Jer 23:27.

Exactly, Pagans call their god (or gods) "Lord" as well. And that is not a conspiracy theory, but a very important point. HJ scholars make similar points. But they do not express the concern that we have. But hopefully the Good LORD Yah hears a person's heart, not just their words. I believe He does.

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:47 pm

2timothy316 wrote: Manasseh "rebuilt the high places that his father Hez·e·kiʹah had destroyed, and he set up altars to Baʹal [LORD] and made a sacred pole [Cross], just as Aʹhab the king of Israel had done." 2 Kings 21:3

Today's worship is so much like the old worship it's scary.

If it's any consolation, at least Jesus-worship is connected to YHVH worship. Jesus is not connected to Baal.

Conflating The Lord Jesus with the LORD YHVH is one thing, conflating the LORD YHVH with Baal is quite another.

bluethread · Post by **bluethread** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:05 pm

Elijah John wrote: [Replying to post 8 by bluethread]

Agreed that Jesus does not state the Name, but he does allude to it. And it is reasonable to conclude that one should at least remember the name of God in prayer, the name of the Father, no mention of the name of the Son. At least not in this model prayer.

Well, "father" is Abba and "the Name" is HaShem. These are both are commonly used, though not by most Evangelicals. If Yeshua intended that those terms not be used, then He could have easily have include YHVH in the prayer.

If one wants to combine the teachings of "John's" Jesus, with the teaching of the Synoptic Jesus and hallow the name of the Father while concluding "in Jesus name we pray", all well and good. But do you think that is what Jesus actually intended?

I think what Yeshua intended in both cases that one should acknowledge Adonai(Ya) is the author of salvation(Hoshea), when one prays. When one is doing that , one is praying in the name of Ya-Hoshua.

My point and the point of this thread is to point out that Evangelicals tend only to hallow the name of Jesus in prayer, and often neglect the name of the Father.

I don't think that is as prevalent as it used to be. Evangelicals are highly malleable and are also highly influenced by music. The introduction of Messianic music into the mainstream has resulted in many expanding their prayer practices.

Do we agree that the Father has an actual name, according to the Hebrew Bible (what other name is used almost 7000 times?) and that name is supreme?

What other name but YHVH is the basis of so many Theophonic names, such as "Elijah, Jerimiah, Isaiah, and even Yahshua (Jesus/Joshua)?

I do not think that "name" can encapsulate the nature of the deity of Avraham, Yitzchak and Yacov. Your points regarding the number of times YHWH is used in the Scriptures and the common us of ya as a prefix and suffix is persuasive regarding the importance of that name among Adonai's people. However, it should be noted that that name, as others, was given to Moshe' as a concession. Which brings me back to what "the Lord's Prayer" actually says, "Hollowed be thy name." What is important is that we should view that which is representative of Adonai be held apart from other words and names, as Adonai is apart from all else that exists.

By the way, in the day, even though there was a specific deity named Baal, baal was equivalent to the medieval term lord, and was commonly used to refer to anyone in authority.

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:28 pm

[Replying to post 16 by bluethread]

Interesting points.

Concession or not, do you acknowledge that when Jews use the term "HaShem" the Name they are referring to is YHVH? (Yahweh, Yahveh, Yahovah) Which out of an abundance of revence and caution, they are reluctant to pronounce?

Also, don't forget that names were extremely important in Hebraic culture, and did indeed encapsulate the nature of what was being conveyed. Never completely, especially when it comes to God, but essential nonetheless. "Essential" meaning "of the essence".

But back to the Lord's Prayer. I think you are on to something when you say that Jesus could have easily have incorporated the Holy Name of YHVH into the prayer. Jesus was never afraid of confronting Rabbinic "traditions of men". In this case, the tradition of prohibiting the pronounciation of the Divine Name. But I think we may differ somewhat as to the reasons why Jesus did not explicity include HaShem. There is a theory held by many that Jesus was introducing a "new name" for God, namely "Father" (Abba). Granted "Father" is more of a title than a name, but given the importance Jesus placed on that familial metophor for God, it seems a plausible theory.

Then again, Jesus may well have explicitly used the Tetragrammaton in the original Lord's Prayer, and it may well have been Jesus redactors (the Synoptic Evangelists) who diluted and omitted it, in a bow to Rabbinic Tradition. But that is speculation.

Now whether Jesus bowed to that traditon or had another reason for not explicitly including HaShem in the Prayer, King David didn't share that reluctance, and was far more explicit in the Psalms.

brianbbs67 · Post by **brianbbs67** » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:27 pm

Isn't the word Ha-shem meaning High water and Shem, water? Thus as Noah named his son Shem as he reflected him or was the same in appearance. God seems to name Himself by what He is doing at a particular time. "I am YHVH when I comfort and Elohim when I judge."

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:03 am

brianbbs67 wrote: Isn't the word Ha-shem meaning High water and Shem, water? Thus as Noah named his son Shem as he reflected him or was the same in appearance. God seems to name Himself by what He is doing at a particular time. "I am YHVH when I comfort and Elohim when I judge."

"Ha*Shem" means "The Name". Jews often use the term as a stand-in for "YHVH" (Yahweh, Jehovah) which out of an abundance of caution and reverence, they are reluctant to pronounce.

Or they may use the term "Adonai" (my LORD).

Regarding Noah's son, perhaps he was suffering from a lack of imagination when trying to come up with a name for his son.

-----

*"Ha" means "The"...you may have read Bluethread's posts where he refers to "The Torah" as "Ha Torah, for example.

bluethread · Post by **bluethread** » Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:49 pm

Elijah John wrote:
Now whether Jesus bowed to that traditon or had another reason for not explicitly including HaShem in the Prayer, King David didn't share that reluctance, and was far more explicit in the Psalms.

Your points are also interesting. However, I personally do not require people to use a particular name or refrain from it. I do not think that is what the commandments regarding Adonai's name are about. Therefore, my primary concern is that whatever name one uses, it not lead to a misunderstanding of what is under consideration, or the character of Adonai.