Job 9:8
Who alone stretches out the heavens
And tramples down the waves of the sea. (NASB)
Isaiah 44:24
Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb,
I, the LORD, am the maker of all things,
Stretching out the heavens by Myself
And spreading out the earth all alone (NASB)
God "alone" is the Creator and yet the Jehovah's Witnesses affirm that the Lord Jesus shared in the creation.
Insight on the Scriptures: Not a co-Creator. The Sons share in the creative works, however, did not make him a co-Creator with his Father. The power for creation came from God through his holy spirit, or active force. (Ge 1:2; Ps 33:6) And since Jehovah is the Source of all life, all animate creation, visible and invisible, owes its life to him. (Ps 36:9) Rather than a co-Creator, then, the Son was the agent or instrumentality through whom Jehovah, the Creator, worked. Jesus himself credited God with the creation, as do all the Scriptures."Mt 19:4-6; see CREATION. (Volume 2, Jesus Christ)
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002451
Why do the Jehovah's Witnesses deny the Lord Jesus is God despite the fact that He shared in the creation when the Bible teaches that God "alone" did it?
Jehovah's Witnesses: Jesus is the Creator
Moderator: Moderators
Re: Jehovah's Witnesses: Jesus is the Creator
Post #22The Name of the Father is "JESUS". the Name of the Son is JESUS, because it's the SAME PERSON.Elijah John wrote:If "Christ is Yahweh" or Jehovah, then what is the name of the Father?EBA wrote:Please continue with your course of thinking, I'm curious. I too believe Christ is Yahweh and that he is our creator.101G wrote: Thanks for the post, I'm not challenging the name itself but the title holder as CREATOR, as the thread topic states.
so I take it that you don't want to answer the Revelation 1:1 question?.
Peace in JESUS the Lord.
Peace.
understand, God who is a Spirit, the ROOT, (see John 4:24a) in the OT without flesh and bone is LORD, title "Father", meaning he's "CREATOR", and "MAKER" of all things. the Same Spirit, SHARED himself by G2758 kenoo, make (of none effect), now with flesh and bone, title Son (see John 1:14). he's Lord, because of the flesh and bones that he MANIFESTED himself in, better known as the "OFFSPRING", meaning he's the "SAVIOUR" of all, and the "REDEEMER" of all things.
it's just that simple. the "SAME" Spirit, the "SAME" Person.
now onto the Revelation 1:1 Question that establish JESUS as CREATOR
Post #23
The Revelation 1:1 Question?
Scripture, Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John".
My question was, "Who sent (his) angel to John?". that was a straight and forward question. but I pointed out that the angel himself told us in scripture as to who sent him, Revelation 22:6, while the angel was talking with John he said who sent him, "And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done".
this is clear as day as to who sent him, it was the "Lord God of the Holy Prophets. this is how the KJV translate the verse. but the NWT says, "Jehovah" the God who inspired the prophets sent his angel, one can read what the NWT (online) says here at this link, .. https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bibl ... lation/22/
just come down to verse 6.
well that's very interesting, because the KJV and the NWT tells us by Personal Name who sent "HIS" angel. just scroll down to verse 16 and let's see who both the KJV and the NWT says sent "HIS" angel.
the KJV, Revelation 22:16 "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star".
one can read what the NWT says from the link above.
Notice, the NWT in Revelation 22:6 says that Jehovah sent the Angle, and then turns around and says in verse 16 of the SAME chapter that the Lord Jesus sent the angel.
if the JW say Jesus (the CREATOR) is not their Jehovah then they are calling their own NWT (which they teach from) a lie.
so take your choice, but both translation said JESUS sent his angel in verse 16.
now either the NWT has an ERROR, or the JW have been taught wrong, again one can make their own choice.
Now onto the Job 38 Question
Scripture, Revelation 1:1 "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John".
My question was, "Who sent (his) angel to John?". that was a straight and forward question. but I pointed out that the angel himself told us in scripture as to who sent him, Revelation 22:6, while the angel was talking with John he said who sent him, "And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done".
this is clear as day as to who sent him, it was the "Lord God of the Holy Prophets. this is how the KJV translate the verse. but the NWT says, "Jehovah" the God who inspired the prophets sent his angel, one can read what the NWT (online) says here at this link, .. https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bibl ... lation/22/
just come down to verse 6.
well that's very interesting, because the KJV and the NWT tells us by Personal Name who sent "HIS" angel. just scroll down to verse 16 and let's see who both the KJV and the NWT says sent "HIS" angel.
the KJV, Revelation 22:16 "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star".
one can read what the NWT says from the link above.
Notice, the NWT in Revelation 22:6 says that Jehovah sent the Angle, and then turns around and says in verse 16 of the SAME chapter that the Lord Jesus sent the angel.
if the JW say Jesus (the CREATOR) is not their Jehovah then they are calling their own NWT (which they teach from) a lie.
so take your choice, but both translation said JESUS sent his angel in verse 16.
now either the NWT has an ERROR, or the JW have been taught wrong, again one can make their own choice.
Now onto the Job 38 Question
Post #24
The Job chapter 38 Question.
Who are the Morning Stars, and the Sons of God?. let's tell you who they are not. they are not angels, nor peoples.
the very first thing to know is that these identification are metaphors. all the language there in Job 38 is metaphoric in nature. and we will prove it, BY SCRIPTURE. but bare with us because we'll make it as short as possible to understand.
we'll give you the answer up front and then prove it by scriptures.
the Morning Stars here in Job 38 are the actual stars in the heavens at creation. the sons God here, are the actual Sun and the moon in the heavens at creation. now with that said let's go to the scriptures to prove this out.
Step #1. the first scripture, James 1:17 "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning".
one of the titles of the Most High is "Father of Lights. Father here is the Greek word, G3962 pater (pa-teer') n. . now let's go to the blue letter bible and look up this term and it can be found here at this link, https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... 3962&t=KJV
in the definition of G3962 pater, it is mostly used as to describe in definition #1. generator or male ancestor. but if you would scroll down to definition #3 and we are going to look a A. which states, God is called the Father
of the stars, the heavenly luminaries, because he is their creator, upholder, ruler.
say what! God is the "FATHER" of the "STARS".... and the "heavenly luminaries".
Step #2. now that we have the stars down let get these "heavenly luminaries" just go to the Free Dictionary at this link and it will give us the definition that we're looking for. https://www.thefreedictionary.com/luminaries
notice what it says, a. An object, such as a celestial body, that gives light.
b. In astrology, one of the brightest celestial objects, such as the sun, moon, or bright planets. also if we used Dictionary.com, it give us the same definition, here's the link, http://www.dictionary.com/browse/luminary?s=t
it states, a celestial body, as the sun or moon".
Step #3. Yes, I know what you're thinking by now, Job 38 said, "they sang and shouted for joy". ok, let's see the sun and the moon sing..... by scripture. Psalms 148:3 "Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light". ok, how do the sun, the moon and the stars praise God? here's how. the word "praise" here is the Hebrew word, H1984 "- halal (haw-lal') v.
1. (originally) to be openly clear, lacking subtlety (originally of sound).
2. (typically) to be radiantly clear and obvious (usually of bold brilliant color).
3. (by implication) to clearly shine, to be splendid (as radiant).
4. (of acclamation) to splendidly praise.
5. (hence) to splendidly boast (i.e. to make a clear show).
6. (thus) to be (clamorously) foolish.
7. to rave.
8. (causatively) to celebrate.
9. (also) to stultify, make one appear foolish.
[a primitive root]
KJV: (make) boast (self), celebrate, commend, (deal, make), fool(- ish, -ly), glory, give (light), be (make, feign self) mad (against), give in marriage, (sing, be worthy of) praise, rage, renowned, shine.
as one can see, what is bold, and colored blue in the definition above, the sun, the moon and the stars all praised God, or sang to God by shining their light in the Creation and been singing ever since.
Step #4. but I know, some are still not convinced. well let the scripture speak and MAKE it very plain as to the used of metaphoric language. listen, Psalms 65:13 "The pastures are clothed with flocks; the valleys also are covered over with corn; they shout for joy, they also sing.
you can't get any plainer that that. the Pasture and the valleys, "Shout for Joy?". this is the exact language used in Job 38. and they SING. the exact same metaphoric language used in Job 38.
conclusion: the sons of God in Job 38 are the actual sun and moon, and the morning stars are just that the stares in the Heavens, "the heavenly luminaries", which God is the Father of, the Father of Light as the apostle James states.
so if one try to used Job 38 as angels, they are not.
Peace in Christ JESUS.
Who are the Morning Stars, and the Sons of God?. let's tell you who they are not. they are not angels, nor peoples.
the very first thing to know is that these identification are metaphors. all the language there in Job 38 is metaphoric in nature. and we will prove it, BY SCRIPTURE. but bare with us because we'll make it as short as possible to understand.
we'll give you the answer up front and then prove it by scriptures.
the Morning Stars here in Job 38 are the actual stars in the heavens at creation. the sons God here, are the actual Sun and the moon in the heavens at creation. now with that said let's go to the scriptures to prove this out.
Step #1. the first scripture, James 1:17 "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning".
one of the titles of the Most High is "Father of Lights. Father here is the Greek word, G3962 pater (pa-teer') n. . now let's go to the blue letter bible and look up this term and it can be found here at this link, https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... 3962&t=KJV
in the definition of G3962 pater, it is mostly used as to describe in definition #1. generator or male ancestor. but if you would scroll down to definition #3 and we are going to look a A. which states, God is called the Father
of the stars, the heavenly luminaries, because he is their creator, upholder, ruler.
say what! God is the "FATHER" of the "STARS".... and the "heavenly luminaries".
Step #2. now that we have the stars down let get these "heavenly luminaries" just go to the Free Dictionary at this link and it will give us the definition that we're looking for. https://www.thefreedictionary.com/luminaries
notice what it says, a. An object, such as a celestial body, that gives light.
b. In astrology, one of the brightest celestial objects, such as the sun, moon, or bright planets. also if we used Dictionary.com, it give us the same definition, here's the link, http://www.dictionary.com/browse/luminary?s=t
it states, a celestial body, as the sun or moon".
Step #3. Yes, I know what you're thinking by now, Job 38 said, "they sang and shouted for joy". ok, let's see the sun and the moon sing..... by scripture. Psalms 148:3 "Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light". ok, how do the sun, the moon and the stars praise God? here's how. the word "praise" here is the Hebrew word, H1984 "- halal (haw-lal') v.
1. (originally) to be openly clear, lacking subtlety (originally of sound).
2. (typically) to be radiantly clear and obvious (usually of bold brilliant color).
3. (by implication) to clearly shine, to be splendid (as radiant).
4. (of acclamation) to splendidly praise.
5. (hence) to splendidly boast (i.e. to make a clear show).
6. (thus) to be (clamorously) foolish.
7. to rave.
8. (causatively) to celebrate.
9. (also) to stultify, make one appear foolish.
[a primitive root]
KJV: (make) boast (self), celebrate, commend, (deal, make), fool(- ish, -ly), glory, give (light), be (make, feign self) mad (against), give in marriage, (sing, be worthy of) praise, rage, renowned, shine.
as one can see, what is bold, and colored blue in the definition above, the sun, the moon and the stars all praised God, or sang to God by shining their light in the Creation and been singing ever since.
Step #4. but I know, some are still not convinced. well let the scripture speak and MAKE it very plain as to the used of metaphoric language. listen, Psalms 65:13 "The pastures are clothed with flocks; the valleys also are covered over with corn; they shout for joy, they also sing.
you can't get any plainer that that. the Pasture and the valleys, "Shout for Joy?". this is the exact language used in Job 38. and they SING. the exact same metaphoric language used in Job 38.
conclusion: the sons of God in Job 38 are the actual sun and moon, and the morning stars are just that the stares in the Heavens, "the heavenly luminaries", which God is the Father of, the Father of Light as the apostle James states.
so if one try to used Job 38 as angels, they are not.
Peace in Christ JESUS.
Post #25
JehovahsWitness wrote:Thus, prior to the creation of the physical universe God therefore created his spiritual family, including his son Jesus (post 2).
This is not correct and the bible tells us so
To begin, Genesis 1:1 tells us that the "Almighty" created the heavens of our universe, thus the universe itself. The bible references three heavens within this universe: the earth's atmosphere, outer space and the abode of the angels or the third heaven. Now, I realize that almost all the religious believe that the "Almighty" also exists in this third heaven, but this is not biblical, nor does the NWT support this claim.
Hence, since the angels couldn't have been created before the universe or specifically: the third heaven, because they needed an abode to exist in before being created. Thus, they couldn't have been involved in the basic creation of our universe, referred to in Genesis 1:1They were created afterwards and were assigned the task of beautifying, what the "Almighty" had already created.
Therefore, we can go to the bible and the NWT to support this claim of mineIn 1Kings 8:27, King Solomon is stating that the earth (its atmosphere), heaven (outer space) and the heaven of heavens (the third heaven) cannot contain the "Almighty." Also, in Psalm 113:4 it is recorded that the "Almighty" is above or outside of the (three) heavens. So, these verses clearly shows that the "Almighty" exists outside of our universe, in a realm of His own, without created angels.
Yet, some could say that the bible records that the angels see and talk to the "Almighty" and they would be right! But, I can see and talk to others, which are great distances from me, using human technologies. Since, the knowledge of man is foolishness to the "Almighty" (1Cor. 3:19-23), we can only speculate on the vast abilities that the "Almighty" possesses, which allows Him to communicate with His created angels and humankind in ways we do not fully understand. This should not come as a surprise to us
So, the reality is that the universe, which humans exist in was not created for us, but for the angels. We are just beneficiaries of the rebellion, which occurred among these angels.
Post #26
this world and the heavens are a creation of God. he fills both Heaven and Earth, see Jer 23:23 & 24. so what we see and hear is a creation, this is not the real world.
and two it is JESUS who in Gen 1:1 created everything. Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself".
now John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made".
clearly the bible said JESUS made "everything". So Genesis 1:1 it's JESUS.
and two it is JESUS who in Gen 1:1 created everything. Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself".
now John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made".
clearly the bible said JESUS made "everything". So Genesis 1:1 it's JESUS.
Post #27
and101G wrote:This world and the heavens are a creation of God.
The following verses show that the Son of God is not GodAnd, the Son affirms this in many of the these verses. So, we need to ask (related to this matter): Who do we believe? The Son of God or private interpretations. Especially, concerning the truth about John 1:3 and Isa. 44:24.101G wrote:Now John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made." Clearly the bible said JESUS made "everything". So Genesis 1:1 it's JESUS.
* Matthew 6:8-14: Since, the Son did not include himself nor the Holy Spirit in these verses (he only included the Father), he is clearly indicating that the Father is the true and only God.
* Matthew 24:36: Here, the Son of God makes a distinction between what he knows and what the Father knows. There can be no misconception with who is the Supreme God.
* Matthew 26:39: The Son of God's will is likewise autonomous from Gods Will. The Son of God is seeking acquiescence to Gods will.
* Matthew 27:46: This would be inconceivable, if the Son is God the Creator.
* Mark 10:18: The Son emphatically makes a distinction between himself and the Creator of the universe.
* John 5:19: The Son of God declares that he is following a pattern laid down by his Father. He is expressing obedience to God. Which, shows submission to the Father's will.
* John 5:26-27: This is a stinging reality made by the Son of God, which states that the Father gave life to His Son.
* John 5:30: The Son of God does not elevate his will above the will of his Father. He is not trying to please himself. But, rather is seeking to please the One who sent him (from the womb).
* John 14:28: This is another strong statement that makes a distinction between the Son of God and the Creator God.
* John 17:21-23: In this prayer the Son defines the term to be one. It is clearly accomplished through the relationship of two autonomous beings. Believers are to model their relationship after the relationship of God and His Son. Notice: to be one does not mean to be one and the same. But, to be in-agreement
* 1 Corinthians 15:27-28: Paul declares that God put everything under His Son, except God Himself. Instead God rules all things through the Son. Then, when God puts all things under the Son, the Son becomes subject to the Almighty.
* Hebrews 1:1-3: The Son of God is the exact representation of his being. Example: I choose my representative to Congress. He is not me, he is my representative. Note: The Greek word, which was translated as "worlds" in verse 2 is not correct. It actually means: an age or a period of time, such as the Messianic period. We can see the same type of confusion with the Greek word translated "made." Which can also be expressed as: appoint, ordain, band together, execute and fulfil.
* Hebrews 4:15 (compared with James 1:13): The Son has been tempted in every way, just as we are, yet he never sinned.
* James 1:13: The Son was tempted in every way, but God cannot be tempted. This is why the Son stated: Dont call me good, none are good, but God.
* Hebrews 5:7-14: The Son of God had to walk a course of faith and obedience in order to achieve perfection. Thus, by achieving perfection, the Son became the author of eternal salvation to all who obeys him.
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Post #28
I agree that this world is a construct, which is easily manipulated by God. I have seen this happen. Just look at the natural world, like , the weather.101G wrote: this world and the heavens are a creation of God. he fills both Heaven and Earth, see Jer 23:23 & 24. so what we see and hear is a creation, this is not the real world.
clearly the bible said JESUS made "everything". So Genesis 1:1 it's JESUS.
Post #29
GINOLJC, to all.FWI wrote:and101G wrote:This world and the heavens are a creation of God.
The following verses show that the Son of God is not GodAnd, the Son affirms this in many of the these verses. So, we need to ask (related to this matter): Who do we believe? The Son of God or private interpretations. Especially, concerning the truth about John 1:3 and Isa. 44:24.101G wrote:Now John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made." Clearly the bible said JESUS made "everything". So Genesis 1:1 it's JESUS.
* Matthew 6:8-14: Since, the Son did not include himself nor the Holy Spirit in these verses (he only included the Father), he is clearly indicating that the Father is the true and only God.
* Matthew 24:36: Here, the Son of God makes a distinction between what he knows and what the Father knows. There can be no misconception with who is the Supreme God.
* Matthew 26:39: The Son of God's will is likewise autonomous from Gods Will. The Son of God is seeking acquiescence to Gods will.
* Matthew 27:46: This would be inconceivable, if the Son is God the Creator.
* Mark 10:18: The Son emphatically makes a distinction between himself and the Creator of the universe.
* John 5:19: The Son of God declares that he is following a pattern laid down by his Father. He is expressing obedience to God. Which, shows submission to the Father's will.
* John 5:26-27: This is a stinging reality made by the Son of God, which states that the Father gave life to His Son.
* John 5:30: The Son of God does not elevate his will above the will of his Father. He is not trying to please himself. But, rather is seeking to please the One who sent him (from the womb).
* John 14:28: This is another strong statement that makes a distinction between the Son of God and the Creator God.
* John 17:21-23: In this prayer the Son defines the term to be one. It is clearly accomplished through the relationship of two autonomous beings. Believers are to model their relationship after the relationship of God and His Son. Notice: to be one does not mean to be one and the same. But, to be in-agreement
* 1 Corinthians 15:27-28: Paul declares that God put everything under His Son, except God Himself. Instead God rules all things through the Son. Then, when God puts all things under the Son, the Son becomes subject to the Almighty.
* Hebrews 1:1-3: The Son of God is the exact representation of his being. Example: I choose my representative to Congress. He is not me, he is my representative. Note: The Greek word, which was translated as "worlds" in verse 2 is not correct. It actually means: an age or a period of time, such as the Messianic period. We can see the same type of confusion with the Greek word translated "made." Which can also be expressed as: appoint, ordain, band together, execute and fulfil.
* Hebrews 4:15 (compared with James 1:13): The Son has been tempted in every way, just as we are, yet he never sinned.
* James 1:13: The Son was tempted in every way, but God cannot be tempted. This is why the Son stated: Dont call me good, none are good, but God.
* Hebrews 5:7-14: The Son of God had to walk a course of faith and obedience in order to achieve perfection. Thus, by achieving perfection, the Son became the author of eternal salvation to all who obeys him.
I love question like these. let's take these one step at a time. your first question.
#1. "Matthew 6:8-14: Since, the Son did not include himself nor the Holy Spirit in these verses (he only included the Father), he is clearly indicating that the Father is the true and only God".
ok, Let's establish who the "Father" is first. Matthew 1:19 "Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.
Matthew 1:20 "But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost".
the one who conceive the child is the "Father" right. now from reading verse 20 tell us who A. conceived the child, and B. the result of that conception state who the Father is.
so please tell us who is the Father according to verse 20 here in Matthews?
I'll be waiting for your answer.
Peace in Christ Jesus.
Post #30
GINOLJC, to all. posted:
Do you consider dreams to be reliable sources of facts especially when related by a non-witness 80 years after the fact writing to make converts to a new religion?
The father was Joseph himself or some other male.
As Good Apostle Paul advised: Test everything. Hold fast to that which is true. But put away childish things.
RESPONSE:Matthew 1:20 "But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost".
so please tell us who is the Father according to verse 20 here in Matthews?
Do you consider dreams to be reliable sources of facts especially when related by a non-witness 80 years after the fact writing to make converts to a new religion?
The father was Joseph himself or some other male.
As Good Apostle Paul advised: Test everything. Hold fast to that which is true. But put away childish things.
