Is the Bible the inerrant Word of God?

[Elijah John]

For those who claim that the Bible is the "inerrant Word of God" why do you believe this?

Seems to me the arguments to support this belief are usually circular. As in "The Bible is inerrant because it is the Word of God". And evidence that the Bible is the Word of God?" Because the Bible is without error or contradiction", i.e. inerrant.

Consider this OP a challenge. Give the skeptic a better argument to convince them that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God than the usual circular argument.

Why do you believe and why should the skeptic believe that the Bible is the "inerrant Word of God"?

Break out of the circle.

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 83 by PinSeeker]

brunumb: What criteria did you use and how did you apply them in order to distinguish between all of that being real and all of that being a product of your imagination? Unless you can supply that, it is not unreasonable to dismiss it as just self-delusion.

PinSeeker: I'm fine with that.

So, no criteria. I guess you are happy with self-delusion. That is your privilege. But it is therefore not unreasonable for people to dismiss claims presented as truth if they have not been tested and the results of those tests also presented.

No, I'm fine with you dismissing it as self-delusion. That you do means absolutely nothing to me. Again, grace and peace to you.

No criteria then. That actually says a lot. Thank you. Again, grapes and peas to you.

[PinSeeker]

No criteria then. That actually says a lot. Thank you. Again, grapes and peas to you.

Oh, I have plenty of "criteria..." We just know where we both stand, and it's not worth discussing with you any further -- for either of us. Plus, I don't care to subject myself to such incivility and lack of grace. But again, grace and peace to you.

[PinSeeker]

Well, I don't think or know anything about sin.

Um, I think you have some idea of what it is, or what you think it is, anyway. It's a pretty innocuous question. I'm not trying to "trap" you or anything.

From my point of view, it is a completely non-existent concept. It's something made up.

I understand. Okay, forget about the term "sin." Let's just call it "evil," or better yet, "something the Christian God hates." What do you think it's comprised of, generally speaking?

So let's go back to your getting-cut-off-in-traffic analogy. You get cut off, you scream a litany of foul language. You and I agree that this is an expression of anger. What makes this "sin"?

This is a good question, and something I'm very happy to speak to, but I would like you to answer my question first. Is that possible? Because my answer to this question will be closely related to your answer to my question.

[Clownboat]

You are wrong and the evidence for that is all the differing denomination.

The message itself is clear. Human understanding, however, is clouded. Because of sin.

You cannot show that this 'sin' thing is a real thing though. You just so happen to believe it is and then feel justified to spew it on to others. Therefore, as it stands for now, the fact that we have 10's of thousands of denomination of Christianity is explained by it not having a clear message.

The words are still there. Forgive and you will be forgiven.

Yes, but if you disregard context -- which is what you're doing -- you can make anything "say" anything.

I agree about one thing, we can make the Bible say just about anything.

Perhaps in your version you must have a human sacrificed to a god in order to receive forgiveness? Paul was huge on that take after all. So many flavors of Christianity...

What, that Jesus was sacrificed on our behalf?

Yup. Many ancient civilizations apparently were huge fans of humans sacrifices to their god concepts. Christianity is no different. Wouldn't an all powerful god want to separate itself from all the false gods that people thought also wanted human sacrifice?

Sure, but that's the only "flavor" of Christianity there is.

False. See the largest denomination of Christianity out there and note how even atheists can go to their heaven.
You are not an authority on Christianity, I'm sorry if you think you are, but it's just not reality. You don't get to say who is the real Christians anymore than the next guy.

All Christians, regardless of denomination, believe Jesus was the propitiation for our sin(s), and is therefore the Lamb of God.

Back to human sacrifice to appease the gods.
Please note, I do not claim that you cannot find some things that most denominations agree on, but you are still ignoring the largest denomination and how it has informed us that even an atheist can go to heaven. You cannot ignore a major difference in something so important as how to get to heaven by pointing to something else that most denominations agree on.

We shall. And how does this refute what I say here? It doesn't.

You claimed he was not talking about salvation. Clearly, by him talking about giving an account on the day of judgment, he is talking about salvation. He then says we will be condemned or acquitted by our words. No human sacrifice is mentioned, just our words here in regards to the day of judgement and how they will condemn us or acquit us.

Well, not clear to you. I understand. Now, that doesn't mean I think you are "not as smart" as me or any other person. I don't. But I understand.

Sounds like false bravado to me. I'm sorry, but I don't believe your claim that you have some special god understanding ability that escapes me. Especially since I was a believer for 2 decades.
This informs me that the clarity you think is in the Bible is not really there.

The pope is the successor to St. Peter, no?

Absolutely not.

You can take that up with 1.2 billion Catholics. It's comical to watch from the outside just how sure the different denominations are about how they just so happened to become a member of the 'real correct' version.

Sorry guy, but you have not shown that I have sin in me.

By showing you that you sin? I have not shown you that there is sin in you? LOL!

Correct. You are doing nothing more than pointing to the actions of humans and declaring 'sin'. Your declarations are not impressive. I wish you would understand this.

You are doing nothing more than projecting your sickness on to others.

Well no, I'm just acknowledging that I have this "sickness," as you put it, too.

You then project it on to the rest of the human race.

<snipped preaching>

A cubit is about 18 inches.

The cubit is an ancient unit of length that had several definitions according to each of the various different cultures that used the unit. These definitions ranged between 444 mm and 529.2 mm.

This variance is just a few inches and does not account for how Goliath's height grew a few feet as time passed.

The Bible contains myths that did not happen.

Creation, Global Flood, Talking animals, A man living in a fish for days, Dead and decomposing bodies coming back to life, People flying off in the sky to heaven.

Right; but again, that's just your opinion.

Yup, it is my opinion that donkeys and snakes cannot talk, or that a man cannot live in the belly of a fish for days, or that decomposing bodies don't come back to life, or that heaven is not up in the sky. You also share these opinions with me, you are just employing special pleading when it comes to your preferred religion. Like Muslims do.

And again, Clownboat, what is "faith?" What is Biblical faith, and Who is it's giver (author and protector)?

In the case that is happening here, faith is what allows you to believe in things that you would not normally find credible. It's special pleading with an attempt at justifying it because of faith.

Since there is not information about Christ outside of religious promotional material, you do in fact have faith in a book as that is the only source about your Christ.

No, I have faith from God

Please explain the mechanism that this god used to supply you with this faith. Keep in mind your faith cannot have anything to do with a book for your claim to be true.

and in God that the book

Derp! Nevermind.

<snipped claims about things he has faith in>

<snipped preaching about faith>

Ah, yes, cut out what you don't want to hear. Gotcha.

Don't blame me if you cannot abide by the rules of this forum that you agreed to upon joining. You will know them by their fruits, no?

Was it you that I quoted Simon and Garfunkel to? If not: "Still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest..." (The Boxer, 1968)

Gone with the Wind - Pg 56
Of course there would be no war and the men knew it. They just love to talk and to hear themselves talk.
I don't consider either source to be an authority, do you?

LOL! No, God changed the "narrative" that Abraham had been fed. He was probably a moon worshiper, as was the Chaldean way that he came from.

And this is the comparison I made to Islam. What Islam did to Christianity would be similar to what this Abraham guy did with the god concepts of his homeland.

Then Mohommed changed God's "narrative" and made Abraham out to be basically the opposite of what he was. Which was my point.

Nope, now what faith would allow me to claim without any evidence whatsoever if I was a faithful Muslim would be:
"Allah changed the corrupt narrative that humans had claimed about the one true god and his prophet, peace be upon him".
What do I win?
See what faith allows?

I showed, Clownboat, your sinful reaction to even ordinary, trivial situations like being cut off in traffic. You don't agree that your actions speak louder than mere words?

Again, you are pointing to the actions of some humans (not even my actions as I said I would not judge because for all I know, the person might have had a bee fly in their face) and calling those actions sinful. Call a potato a cucumber and it is still a potato. You're claim is empty. It is no more truthful then claiming that getting angry about stubbing ones toe is also sinful. What is your criteria for determining what actions are sinful and what actions aren't. Why would getting angry, a very real human emotion be 'sinful'. Surely not because PinSeeker says so?

Now we need to be rescued. Let me guess, you have the rope!

Well, I do, actually. The Rope. You can, too, Clownboat. We all can.

I'm awfully proud of myself for just how accurate I am about where you are coming from. I have been in your shoes though and managed to be set free from my beliefs, so I do have the upper hand it would seem.

Again, grace and peace to you, Clownboat.

And also with you!
(Shout out to the Catholics)

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 92 by PinSeeker]

What do you think it's comprised of, generally speaking?

See this is the problem. Comprised? Are we talking about a material thing, that has/is made up of smaller parts, for example molecules that are composed of atoms?
Any time I've explored the concept of sin, inevitably comparisons are made to things that everyone agrees on, but then the comparison breaks down since the "sin" (whatever it is) simply can't be shown to exist.

For me to make a comparison...what I'm seeing happening with Christians is they want to talk about the Force...except there is no Master Yoda on hand to show us him levitating a space-craft. Nothing like George Lucas's The Force has been shown to exist in real life.

Because my answer to this question will be closely related to your answer to my question.

That's the best I can do. I am interested in seeing how a person screaming at being cut off in traffic is "sinful" and not simply him being angry. As far as I can see, you're simply slapping an extra label word and somehow expecting the rest of us to just go along with it.

[PinSeeker]

You cannot show that this 'sin' thing is a real thing though.

In your opinion.

...the fact that we have 10's of thousands of denomination of Christianity is explained by it not having a clear message.

In your opinion.

Many ancient civilizations apparently were huge fans of humans sacrifices to their god concepts. Christianity is no different.

Actually, Christianity has never required human sacrifice. Neither has Islam. There are no religions that ever practiced human sacrifices that I know of. Animal sacrifices, but not human sacrifices. Ancient civizations, sure, but that's a non-sequitur, really.

Sure, but that's the only "flavor" of Christianity there is.

False. See the largest denomination of Christianity out there and note how even atheists can go to their heaven.

Well, yeah, if they believe in Jesus. The pope said something stupid. He may be an "authority" in the eyes of certain folks, but if he said something antithetical to what the Bible says -- which he did -- then, "authority" or not, he's wrong about that thing. And he's rightfully getting a lot of criticism for it, even from Catholics.

You are not an authority on Christianity...

I don't claim to be. But the issue is not authority, the issue is Biblical correctness.

You don't get to say who is the real Christians anymore than the next guy.

Not doing that. But I can say what makes a Christian a Christian, because the Bible -- which is the Word of God, who is the Authority -- is very clear on that.

All Christians, regardless of denomination, believe Jesus was the propitiation for our sin(s), and is therefore the Lamb of God.

Back to human sacrifice to appease the gods.

Oh, Lord. smh God sacrificed Himself on man's behalf, so man might not have to pay the penalty of sin. Yes, that penalty is death. However, death in the Biblical sense is not "being killed" in the human sense or ceasing to exist, but being totally separated from God.

I don't believe your claim that you have some special god understanding ability that escapes me. Especially since I was a believer for 2 decades.

I don't claim any special knowledge at all. It's plain for all to see in the Bible.

This informs me that the clarity you think is in the Bible is not really there.

Right so since you were a believer for two decades, you were right about everything. Is that what you're saying?

The pope is the successor to St. Peter, no?

Absolutely not.

You can take that up with 1.2 billion Catholics.

Not necessary. They'll find out in the fullness of time. Catholics believe and say a lot of good things. But thinking we should have one guy here on earth over the entire church is not one of them.

Sorry guy, but you have not shown that I have sin in me.

Again, an opinion. You're more than welcome to it. Showing you have an instinct to do anything untoward to other human beings, however trivial, as the traffic example was -- is a glimpse at your base nature. Again, it's not really the "bad things" themselves that are sin, it's the heart -- the nature -- that prompts you to do those things.

In the case that is happening here, faith is what allows you to believe in things that you would not normally find credible.

I'll accept that, but you're still not answering the question. What is Biblical faith, and Who is it's giver (author and protector)? It's pretty easy. Here, I'll help; look at Hebrews 11:1 and 12:2 and tell me what you understand.

Since there is not information about Christ outside of religious promotional material, you do in fact have faith in a book as that is the only source about your Christ.

No, I have faith from God

Please explain the mechanism that this god used to supply you with this faith. Keep in mind your faith cannot have anything to do with a book for your claim to be true.[/quote]
Sure. His Holy Spirit, who worked in me through the words of others and my experiences. Faith comes by hearing. So through others relating Christ to me, and also reading the Bible, which in a figurative sense (or literal if you read out loud to yourself) is also hearing.

Don't blame me if you cannot abide by the rules of this forum that you agreed to upon joining. You will know them by their fruits, no?

Wait. Are you "preaching" to me? I do believe you are. LOL!!!

What Islam did to Christianity would be similar to what this Abraham guy did with the god concepts of his homeland.

Well, no, Abraham didn't distort what he had been given, he just discarded it altogether.

Why would getting angry, a very real human emotion be 'sinful'?

AHHHH! Now THIS is a GREAT question. Getting angry is not necessarily sinful. There is such thing as a Godly, righteous anger. This is the same with any emotion we can think of. There is a Godly, righteous manifestation of it, and a sinful one. Even jealousy (which is a favorite of atheists, who love to talk about that "mean old jealous Christian God" -- what they're doing is attributing sinful jealousy (which is against others) to God, rather than righteous, holy jealousy (which is for others). There's a Godly, righteous, holy manifestation of jealousy, and a sinful manifestation of it. Unfortunately, we are guilty manifestation of anger, jealousy, and every other emotion you can imagine, very, very often. But we are capable of the righteous manifestations of all these emotions. After all, God gave us emotions, so emotions, in and of themselves, are good things. It's we, however, who are capable of using them and/or allowing them to manifest themselves in sinful ways. Because we are sinners.

Ohhhhhhh, but I guess I'm "preaching" again... <eyeroll>

I'm awfully proud of myself for just how accurate I am about where you are coming from.

Well, okay, but pride is a sin, Clownboat.

I have been in your shoes though and managed to be set free from my beliefs, so I do have the upper hand it would seem.

So it might seem. Yes, you are truly "free."

Again, grace and peace to you, Clownboat.

[PinSeeker]

See this is the problem. Comprised?

My goodness. Wow. Okay. Is sin doing bad things? Or is it the "bad things" themselves? Or is it something else?

[rikuoamero]

See this is the problem. Comprised?

My goodness. Wow. Okay. Is sin doing bad things? Or is it the "bad things" themselves? Or is it something else?

I have no idea. I get different ideas, different answers, depending on who I talk to.

[PinSeeker]

I have no idea. I get different ideas, different answers, depending on who I talk to.

Well, I appreciate this little game of cat and mouse you have going, but you must have some opinion. What is it?

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 91 by PinSeeker]

Oh, I have plenty of "criteria..." We just know where we both stand, and it's not worth discussing with you any further -- for either of us.

If you had any criteria and actually applied them to reach your conclusion then you would have presented them. That would undermine the assertion that religion is essentially propagated by indoctrination rather than through people reaching a reasoned position. Instead, all we get are empty claims and dodges, so you should be able to understand a lack of grace. In my experience, no one has been able to justify their position of beliefs such as the indwelling of the Holy Spirit by proper examination of the phenomenon. It all boils down to hearsay.

I agree that it is not worth discussing further because I do not expect you to present anything other than unsupported claims and assertions. Anyone can make up stuff that can't be examined or challenged and it is just a worthless pursuit. I will continue to comment on your posts but I won't do it in expectation of a response.