Supreme Irony?

[Elijah John]

Is it ironic is it that Jesus, the "incarnate Word of God" never wrote his down his words, but left that task for others, who may or may not have gotten it right?

If not a writer, was Jesus at least a good orator? Was he always clear, plain-spoken, effective and comprehensive?

Should the "incarnate Word of God" have been all these things in his communications?

[marco]

However, there is enough trouble with hyperliteralism and relic idolatry as it is. One can only imagine the extent of those problems, if we had actual artifacts of the writings of Yeshua.

Readers may have trouble with hyperliteralism but surely God and his emissaries would not. And one would suppose that any artefact produced by Yeshua would make itself miraculously known. You place human obstacles in the divine path when the Red Sea was no problem.

[William]

[Replying to post 31 by marco]

You place human obstacles in the divine path when the Red Sea was no problem.

Perhaps parting a sea is less the problem than getting humans to accurately convey your personality through words so easily added to, subtracted from etc...one can puppeteer a sea but not so easily, the [strike]w[/strike]right hand of man.

For that GOD requires no medium between the individual and GODself.

Religious writ, preachers, teachers, door-knockers et al are all mediums.

[bluethread]

However, there is enough trouble with hyperliteralism and relic idolatry as it is. One can only imagine the extent of those problems, if we had actual artifacts of the writings of Yeshua.

Readers may have trouble with hyperliteralism but surely God and his emissaries would not. And one would suppose that any artefact produced by Yeshua would make itself miraculously known. You place human obstacles in the divine path when the Red Sea was no problem.

The Sea of Suf was not a physical problem in providing a way of escape for His people. Hyperliteralism and relic idolatry are human failings, not physical obstacles. These problems can be overcome by gaining an understanding of the contexts and that principles are more important than relics. However, the existence of first person written records does not change that. As I pointed out, even if there were first person written records, one could then complain that they were not written in one's own language, history and culture.

[Clownboat]

Was he always clear, plain-spoken, effective and comprehensive?

I think he was, but as he told, the message was for his “sheep�. Other will not hear, understand or believe.

Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you don't believe. The works that I do in my Father's name, these testify about me. But you don't believe, because you are not of my sheep, as I told you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give eternal life to them. They will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
John. 10:25-28

Apparently his sheep do not include all humans.

Consider the Mayans and also tribes living in the Amazon jungle (and such) that still to this day, thousands of years later, have not heard this message nor did they have the opportunity to hear about the works he supposedly did in his fathers name.

[PinSeeker]

Apparently his sheep do not include all humans.

Quite true. The others are goats. Concerning the Judgment, Jesus says (in Matthew 25): "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left."

Consider the Mayans and also tribes living in the Amazon jungle (and such) that still to this day, thousands of years later, have not heard this message nor did they have the opportunity to hear about the works he supposedly did in his fathers name.

True, to an extent. For sure, the fullness of the Gentiles God has not yet brought in to His Israel. But as we speak, there are missionaries out there taking God's Word to them. I personally know quite a few. You should read a book called Bruchko; it's riveting:

https://www.amazon.com/Bruchko-Astonish ... ds=bruchko

Grace and peace to you, Clownboat.

[marco]

Apparently his sheep do not include all humans.

Quite true. The others are goats. Concerning the Judgment, Jesus says (in Matthew 25): "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left."

And a good shepherd will of course recognise good sheep that are not of his flock. It would be absurd were this not so. The trouble with a metaphor is its limited application. We are not sheep.

True, to an extent. For sure, the fullness of the Gentiles God has not yet brought in to His Israel. But as we speak, there are missionaries out there taking God's Word to them. I personally know quite a few.

A pity about those that died before Mr. Smith the missionary managed to get over. Do you really think God works in this piecemeal way, using canoes and sometimes the odd land rover? The terms gentile and Israel have lost their biblical meaning.

[PinSeeker]

In answer to the OP:

http://www.tektonics.org/gk/jeswrite.php

The Tectonics.org people are not without their flaws, in my opinion. For example, they are discombobulated in their eschatological (pertaining to the end times) views. But at least in simple apologetic topics such as this, they do a pretty good job.

[marco]

As I pointed out, even if there were first person written records, one could then complain that they were not written in one's own language, history and culture.

I think if there is Divine Truth it will be obvious, instantly recognisable, lucid. We can read texts from the ancient past without the need to bicker over their authorship. n initial sentence: Dear future generations, I am God incarnate.... would allow us to listen. Presumably, accompanying such a claim, would be incontrovertible truth.

[PinSeeker]

We are not sheep.

Ah, but we are. In our utter inability to find salvation on our own, we are all sheep in need of a Shepherd. To bring us into His Fold. Indeed we are.

A pity about those that died before Mr. Smith the missionary managed to get over. Do you really think God works in this piecemeal way, using canoes and sometimes the odd land rover?

You mean Joseph Smith, the heretic?

The terms gentile and Israel have lost their biblical meaning.

To the willfully ignorant, yes, I agree.

[bluethread]

As I pointed out, even if there were first person written records, one could then complain that they were not written in one's own language, history and culture.

I think if there is Divine Truth it will be obvious, instantly recognisable, lucid. We can read texts from the ancient past without the need to bicker over their authorship. n initial sentence: Dear future generations, I am God incarnate.... would allow us to listen. Presumably, accompanying such a claim, would be incontrovertible truth.

Ok, you are free to think as you like. What do you think of the things that are claimed to be truths by secular sources with regard to the universe? Are they obvious, recognizable and lucid, or did we have to struggle to discover them? Flat earth theory is obvious, recognizable and lucid. It is also wrong.