suffering servant = Messiah = Jesus!

[Metacrock]

Can we demonstrate that the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 is Jesus?

(1) we can demosntrate that he is the Messiah and not just Israel

(2) we can demonstrate that it fits Jesus better than anyone else.


by saying ss is not Isreael I am not excluding the possiblity that since Messiah comes out of Israel that it is both Isreal and an idnivudal person called "Messiah."



I. close reading of chatper will follow.



II. Messiah Will be Light to the Gentiles


A. Israel's Original Mission.


B. Israel cannot accomplish its mission without Messiah.


Messiah is contrasted with wayward Israel in several places Isaiah. Is 50:1-3 "Where is your mother's cirtificate of divorce withwhich I sent her away? OR to which of my creditors did I sell you? Becasue of your sins you were sold, because of your transgressions your mother was sent away....do I lack the strength to rescue you?

To which Messiah responds "...I have not been rebellious, I have not drawn back..." (v5)


1) Messiah to be covenant for Israel

"will keep you," God tells the Messiah "and will make you to be a covenant for the land." (Is 49:8-


2) Messiah to bring Israel back to God


Is 49:5

And now says the Lord, who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant, To bring Jacob back to Him, in order that Israel might be gathered to Him (For I am honored in the sight of the Lord, And My God is My strength)

C. Messiah to bring Israel back AND be light to Gentiles.

49:6

He says, "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also make You a light of the nations So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth."



D. What the Sevant does in 53 is exactly

what the book says Messiah will do.


1) Messaih emerges out of Israel

Is 43:10 "You are My witnesses," declares the Lord, "And My servant whom I have chosen, In order that you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.

"My witnesses" is plural, "My servant" is signular. The servant is part of the witnesses, coming out of Israel, produced by the line of David. Edersheim documents that Rabbical authorites recognize this verse as pertianing to Messiah.



2) Messiah rejected

Is. 50:6 "I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard, I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting..." And we see a rejected servant in 53, a "man of sarrows accounted with greif." This is one who "was despised and rejected."


3) Messiah accomplishes his task

Is 41:4


"here is my servant whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight, I will put my Spirit on him and he will bring jutsice to the nations." Or chater 11: 1 which is clearly marked out as the Messiah: "A shoot will come up from the stump of Jessey; from his roots a branch will bear fruit...(4) but with rigtheousness he will judge the needy, with justice he will give decsions for the poor...(10) in that day the root of Jessey will stand as a banner for the people, the nations will raly to him and his place of rest will be glorious."


Is, 42:6 (established as Messiah on previous page) "I will keep you and make you to be a covenat for the people and a light for the gentiles."

Compare: "(2)" He grew up before him like a tener shoot, and like a root out of dry ground....(12) "because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the trasngressors. For he bore the sin of many and made intercession for the transgressors."


We see that clearly throughout the book of Isiah, Israel is in no shape to be a redeemer, but itself must be redeemed. It cannot be a light to the nations without one from among it's people, Messiah, brining it back to God. In that process Messiah will be a light to the Gentiles, and the covenant for the land. Chapter 11 sasy explicitly that Messiah (the Branch) will do do this, he will be the light to the gentiles. And that is just what we see happening in 53, the servant is marked by the same, or close epithet, Branch, shoot, and is redeeming many. In fact in 52 we see that he will draw the nations to himself. This chapter (53) fits everything it says about Messiah, his mission, and his function, it does not fit anything about Israel.


III. The functin of the Passage in the overall book (s) of Isaiah.



A. Dialectical pattern of the book


1) God condemns Israel for waywardness

2) God calls Israel back and encourages her to be faithful.

3) The Messiah as Intsurment of God's plan

punctuates the pattern of dialogue



B. Chapter 53 as Crucial pivot in God's plan


1) Servant takes the rap for the many and redeems


2) After 53 Israel is seen in the blessed Kingdom in peace and prosterity.


3) The Servant's work as redeemed Israel.

The editor/redactor has placed this passage in the central location. After all the interwoven messages of confonfation and comfort, punctuated by expecations of the Messiah as redeemer, the suffering servant takes the balme for transgressions, it punished on behalf of the people, and than we see the people livng in the blessings of God . The editor used this passage as a means to express the hope and promise that as a result of the Lord's work Israel would return to God and live in peace and abanundance. Although the edtor probably invisioned this as looking forward to the return form exile, the work of Messiah in accmplishing redeemption, it does not necessarily mean that it refurs to a chronological event in that day priror to return from exile. But it looks forward to an event that would transpire at some point in the futre.


C. Israel as redeemer of Itself and others doesn't fit the pivital function.

There is no sense of how Israel was redeemed. Without the work of the SS being that of Messiah the work is incomplete. Irael would go from being wayward and weak to suddenly being strong enough to serve as suffering redeemer with no sense of how it got there and the interwoven strands of Messianich promise for this function would just be loose ends that are never tired up.

Note: this view works even better if one is determined to see the final chapters as eschatological (end times, Messianich Kingdom).

[Metacrock]

Don't you look up the reliablity of your own sources?? Look up the guy you were quoting..

Doh.

Do you mean John Allegro? I know all about him. He was not flaky when he wrote he book "Dead Sea scrolls" and the thigns he says there I have on my site backed by Frank Cross and Sanders and others. It's common knowledge really.


he was the only skeptic on the DSS committee. He became a Jesus Myher and was completely discredited years latter for his theory that Jesus was a cover story for a magic mushroom cult. His nickname is "the Muschroom man." I thought that make him totally acceptable to the Jesus mythers in the crowd.


most of the quotes I put up here are from

Paul J. Achtemeier, Harper's Bible dictionary

Harper/Collins publishing website says:

Paul J. Achtemeier is Professor of Biblical Interpretation at Union Theological Seminary in Richmond, Virginia. A widely respected authority on the Bible, he is the author or co-author of 14 books, former editor of the quarterly Interpretation, and New Testament editor of the Interpretation Biblical Commentary Series. Professor Achtemeier has also been chief executive officer and president of the Society of Biblical Literature, and president of the Catholic Biblical Association. The Editorial...

And randolph Parrish ..

where do I quote him? It's been a couple years since I put that page together.

[einstein]

Is 53 cont"d

Is 53:6-We all like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way: and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Is 53:6 (Heb)-We all went astray as sheep, we have turned each one on his way, and the Lord inflicted on him ( or accepted his prayers for) the iniquity of us all.

When God punished Israel for sins He often used the Gentile nations as his "rod" of discipline. eg Is 10:5. Many times the Gentile nations outdid themselves in the punishment of Israel but this will only serve to merit the nation in the messianic era.
Is 10:2-Speak to the heart of Jerusalem, call to her for she has become full from her host;for her iniquity has been appeased for she has taken from the hand of the Lord, double for all her sins.( to be continued)

[Metacrock]

Is 53 cont"d

Is 53:6-We all like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way: and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Is 53:6 (Heb)-We all went astray as sheep, we have turned each one on his way, and the Lord inflicted on him ( or accepted his prayers for) the iniquity of us all.

When God punished Israel for sins He often used the Gentile nations as his "rod" of discipline. eg Is 10:5. Many times the Gentile nations outdid themselves in the punishment of Israel but this will only serve to merit the nation in the messianic era.
Is 10:2-Speak to the heart of Jerusalem, call to her for she has become full from her host;for her iniquity has been appeased for she has taken from the hand of the Lord, double for all her sins.( to be continued)

the speaker is Israel. In keeping witht he theme of the book, Israel has gone astray It says it over 100 times in Isaiah. They need the messiah to bring them back.

[Goat]

Is 53 cont"d

Is 53:6-We all like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way: and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Is 53:6 (Heb)-We all went astray as sheep, we have turned each one on his way, and the Lord inflicted on him ( or accepted his prayers for) the iniquity of us all.

When God punished Israel for sins He often used the Gentile nations as his "rod" of discipline. eg Is 10:5. Many times the Gentile nations outdid themselves in the punishment of Israel but this will only serve to merit the nation in the messianic era.
Is 10:2-Speak to the heart of Jerusalem, call to her for she has become full from her host;for her iniquity has been appeased for she has taken from the hand of the Lord, double for all her sins.( to be continued)

That is your belief. That is not what it says in Isaiah.


the speaker is Israel. In keeping witht he theme of the book, Israel has gone astray It says it over 100 times in Isaiah. They need the messiah to bring them back.

That is your belief. That is not what it says in Isaiah.

[Metacrock]

Is 53 cont"d

Is 53:6-We all like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way: and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Is 53:6 (Heb)-We all went astray as sheep, we have turned each one on his way, and the Lord inflicted on him ( or accepted his prayers for) the iniquity of us all.

When God punished Israel for sins He often used the Gentile nations as his "rod" of discipline. eg Is 10:5. Many times the Gentile nations outdid themselves in the punishment of Israel but this will only serve to merit the nation in the messianic era.
Is 10:2-Speak to the heart of Jerusalem, call to her for she has become full from her host;for her iniquity has been appeased for she has taken from the hand of the Lord, double for all her sins.( to be continued)

That is your belief. That is not what it says in Isaiah.


the speaker is Israel. In keeping witht he theme of the book, Israel has gone astray It says it over 100 times in Isaiah. They need the messiah to bring them back.

That is your belief. That is not what it says in Isaiah.

My reading fits what it says. You know darn well it says time aftr time after time after time Isreal is astray and Messiah mut bring her back.

"it is not enough for you to be my servant and bring bakc Irael and judah, you must also be a light to the nations." (Targum says "this is Messiah who God is talkign to, the servant is messiah that' in the Targum).

[Goat]

Is 53 cont"d

Is 53:6-We all like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way: and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Is 53:6 (Heb)-We all went astray as sheep, we have turned each one on his way, and the Lord inflicted on him ( or accepted his prayers for) the iniquity of us all.

When God punished Israel for sins He often used the Gentile nations as his "rod" of discipline. eg Is 10:5. Many times the Gentile nations outdid themselves in the punishment of Israel but this will only serve to merit the nation in the messianic era.
Is 10:2-Speak to the heart of Jerusalem, call to her for she has become full from her host;for her iniquity has been appeased for she has taken from the hand of the Lord, double for all her sins.( to be continued)

That is your belief. That is not what it says in Isaiah.


the speaker is Israel. In keeping witht he theme of the book, Israel has gone astray It says it over 100 times in Isaiah. They need the messiah to bring them back.

That is your belief. That is not what it says in Isaiah.

My reading fits what it says. You know darn well it says time aftr time after time after time Isreal is astray and Messiah mut bring her back.

"it is not enough for you to be my servant and bring bakc Irael and judah, you must also be a light to the nations." (Targum says "this is Messiah who God is talkign to, the servant is messiah that' in the Targum).

Yes yes yes, you make all sorts of claims from 'Targum this' and "targum that". However, that is not what Isaiah is saying. If you bother to read it in context, it is talking straight from the nation of Israel all the way through. Your attempts at twisting it's words just don't make it with me (By the way, there are many 'targums'.. Which particular targum are you talking about,and let's see your source on it.

I know a lot of false claims have been made on many of the Targums. They have been falsely represented by some of the psedo-jews, those 'Messanic Jews' who are funded by evangalistic Christian churchs.

[Metacrock]

Is 53 cont"d

Is 53:6-We all like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way: and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Is 53:6 (Heb)-We all went astray as sheep, we have turned each one on his way, and the Lord inflicted on him ( or accepted his prayers for) the iniquity of us all.

When God punished Israel for sins He often used the Gentile nations as his "rod" of discipline. eg Is 10:5. Many times the Gentile nations outdid themselves in the punishment of Israel but this will only serve to merit the nation in the messianic era.
Is 10:2-Speak to the heart of Jerusalem, call to her for she has become full from her host;for her iniquity has been appeased for she has taken from the hand of the Lord, double for all her sins.( to be continued)

That is your belief. That is not what it says in Isaiah.


the speaker is Israel. In keeping witht he theme of the book, Israel has gone astray It says it over 100 times in Isaiah. They need the messiah to bring them back.

That is your belief. That is not what it says in Isaiah.

My reading fits what it says. You know darn well it says time aftr time after time after time Isreal is astray and Messiah mut bring her back.

"it is not enough for you to be my servant and bring bakc Irael and judah, you must also be a light to the nations." (Targum says "this is Messiah who God is talkign to, the servant is messiah that' in the Targum).

Yes yes yes, you make all sorts of claims from 'Targum this' and "targum that". However, that is not what Isaiah is saying. If you bother to read it in context, it is talking straight from the nation of Israel all the way through. Your attempts at twisting it's words just don't make it with me (By the way, there are many 'targums'.. Which particular targum are you talking about,and let's see your source on it.

Ok you want to through a bunch of crap about pretending that you have some supiroirty in reading it. I can read this stuff as well as you can. you are not using schalrly sources or methods.

I have quoted the passage I speak of at least 86 times. I hapred on them for every single post of the fist 10 pages of this thread.

you know they do say tht. You nkow they do. i've put them in your face you cannot deny it. You know it says I sent you to save Isreaal. Is ays Isreal seeks bill of divorce! what in the hell is that? Is Isreadl seeking divorce because they are faithful???


stop living in deniel. you are not reading you using propaganda. you are spouting the reilgiou clap trap of your tradition. you not reading this in a critical schoalrly manner.

I know a lot of false claims have been made on many of the Targums. They have been falsely represented by some of the psedo-jews, those 'Messanic Jews' who are funded by evangalistic Christian churchs.

O O O no no how dishonest can you get??? disavow your own tradition, give up your own guys rather than admit you are not all knowing.

that is sick! so sick so dishonest. how care you say that. you reallyl think targum peudo Jonathan is by a "so called Jew?" you really think you can get away with that?

man you really resort to the fawlest methods when you are in the corner.

[Goat]

Is 53 cont"d

Is 53:6-We all like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way: and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Is 53:6 (Heb)-We all went astray as sheep, we have turned each one on his way, and the Lord inflicted on him ( or accepted his prayers for) the iniquity of us all.

When God punished Israel for sins He often used the Gentile nations as his "rod" of discipline. eg Is 10:5. Many times the Gentile nations outdid themselves in the punishment of Israel but this will only serve to merit the nation in the messianic era.
Is 10:2-Speak to the heart of Jerusalem, call to her for she has become full from her host;for her iniquity has been appeased for she has taken from the hand of the Lord, double for all her sins.( to be continued)

That is your belief. That is not what it says in Isaiah.


the speaker is Israel. In keeping witht he theme of the book, Israel has gone astray It says it over 100 times in Isaiah. They need the messiah to bring them back.

That is your belief. That is not what it says in Isaiah.

My reading fits what it says. You know darn well it says time aftr time after time after time Isreal is astray and Messiah mut bring her back.

"it is not enough for you to be my servant and bring bakc Irael and judah, you must also be a light to the nations." (Targum says "this is Messiah who God is talkign to, the servant is messiah that' in the Targum).

Yes yes yes, you make all sorts of claims from 'Targum this' and "targum that". However, that is not what Isaiah is saying. If you bother to read it in context, it is talking straight from the nation of Israel all the way through. Your attempts at twisting it's words just don't make it with me (By the way, there are many 'targums'.. Which particular targum are you talking about,and let's see your source on it.

Ok you want to through a bunch of crap about pretending that you have some supiroirty in reading it. I can read this stuff as well as you can. you are not using schalrly sources or methods.

I have quoted the passage I speak of at least 86 times. I hapred on them for every single post of the fist 10 pages of this thread.

you know they do say tht. You nkow they do. i've put them in your face you cannot deny it. You know it says I sent you to save Isreaal. Is ays Isreal seeks bill of divorce! what in the hell is that? Is Isreadl seeking divorce because they are faithful???


stop living in deniel. you are not reading you using propaganda. you are spouting the reilgiou clap trap of your tradition. you not reading this in a critical schoalrly manner.

I know a lot of false claims have been made on many of the Targums. They have been falsely represented by some of the psedo-jews, those 'Messanic Jews' who are funded by evangalistic Christian churchs.

O O O no no how dishonest can you get??? disavow your own tradition, give up your own guys rather than admit you are not all knowing.

that is sick! so sick so dishonest. how care you say that. you reallyl think targum peudo Jonathan is by a "so called Jew?" you really think you can get away with that?

man you really resort to the fawlest methods when you are in the corner.

You have not made your case using the words of Isaiah. Resorting to big red letters and ad homenin attacks does not make your case.

You didn't mention which targum for example, and you expect me to read your mind. I am sure you have a whole bunch of evangslic people pointing to the Targum Jonathan , and making a lot of claims about it. However, if you look at strictly Jewish sources on that, a different story is told.

[Metacrock]

Is 53 cont"d

Is 53:6-We all like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way: and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Is 53:6 (Heb)-We all went astray as sheep, we have turned each one on his way, and the Lord inflicted on him ( or accepted his prayers for) the iniquity of us all.

When God punished Israel for sins He often used the Gentile nations as his "rod" of discipline. eg Is 10:5. Many times the Gentile nations outdid themselves in the punishment of Israel but this will only serve to merit the nation in the messianic era.
Is 10:2-Speak to the heart of Jerusalem, call to her for she has become full from her host;for her iniquity has been appeased for she has taken from the hand of the Lord, double for all her sins.( to be continued)

That is your belief. That is not what it says in Isaiah.


the speaker is Israel. In keeping witht he theme of the book, Israel has gone astray It says it over 100 times in Isaiah. They need the messiah to bring them back.

That is your belief. That is not what it says in Isaiah.

My reading fits what it says. You know darn well it says time aftr time after time after time Isreal is astray and Messiah mut bring her back.

"it is not enough for you to be my servant and bring bakc Irael and judah, you must also be a light to the nations." (Targum says "this is Messiah who God is talkign to, the servant is messiah that' in the Targum).

Yes yes yes, you make all sorts of claims from 'Targum this' and "targum that". However, that is not what Isaiah is saying. If you bother to read it in context, it is talking straight from the nation of Israel all the way through. Your attempts at twisting it's words just don't make it with me (By the way, there are many 'targums'.. Which particular targum are you talking about,and let's see your source on it.

Ok you want to through a bunch of crap about pretending that you have some supiroirty in reading it. I can read this stuff as well as you can. you are not using schalrly sources or methods.

I have quoted the passage I speak of at least 86 times. I hapred on them for every single post of the fist 10 pages of this thread.

you know they do say tht. You nkow they do. i've put them in your face you cannot deny it. You know it says I sent you to save Isreaal. Is ays Isreal seeks bill of divorce! what in the hell is that? Is Isreadl seeking divorce because they are faithful???


stop living in deniel. you are not reading you using propaganda. you are spouting the reilgiou clap trap of your tradition. you not reading this in a critical schoalrly manner.

I know a lot of false claims have been made on many of the Targums. They have been falsely represented by some of the psedo-jews, those 'Messanic Jews' who are funded by evangalistic Christian churchs.

O O O no no how dishonest can you get??? disavow your own tradition, give up your own guys rather than admit you are not all knowing.

that is sick! so sick so dishonest. how care you say that. you reallyl think targum peudo Jonathan is by a "so called Jew?" you really think you can get away with that?

man you really resort to the fawlest methods when you are in the corner.

You have not made your case using the words of Isaiah. Resorting to big red letters and ad homenin attacks does not make your case.

you have answered nothing! pretending that the words arent' there wont make them go away.

You didn't mention which targum for example, and you expect me to read your mind.

Yea I did in fact. It's no the site look itup. what difference does it make?you wont look you don't care. any counter evidence is just auotmatically taken as "not true Jew" like you said. you've poisoned the well.

I am sure you have a whole bunch of evangslic people pointing to the Targum Jonathan , and making a lot of claims about it. However, if you look at strictly Jewish sources on that, a different story is told.

grow up. and learn what argument is about. ti's not about posturing, it's not about livingin deniel it's not around pretending you are always right. you can't read with your eyes closed.

I'm not interested in talking to people who are not interested in learning. You can only think in temrs of your propaganda and I don't find that interesting.

[einstein]

Is 53:7-He was oppressed and afflicted,yet he did not open his mouth, he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as sheep before his shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.

Is 53:7(H) He was oppressed and he was afflicted, yet he would not open his mouth;like a lamb to the slaugter he would be brought, and like an ewe that is mute before her shearers, and he would not open his mouth.

The remnant of Israel being slaughtered as sheep by its enemies is a common motif in the Hebrew Bible. see Zech 11:4-7 and Psalm 44:12.23- (12) You deliver us as sheep to be eaten, and You scatter us among the nations. (23)For it for Your sake that we are killed all the time, we are considered as sheep for the slaughter.

The GT provides conflicting accounts wrt Jesus silence or lack thereof. Certainly, the scenario of not opening his mouth is contradicted in Matt27 and John 18. to be continued.