The teachings of Jesus.

[Elijah John]

How practical are the teachings of Jesus in the real world?

Which aspects of his teachings are realistic and readily do-able, and which are not?

Did Paul, and/or the Church filter the teachings of Jesus in order to make them more realistic?

How so?

[JehovahsWitness]

No, I apologize. I was unclear. I meant... most people will love those who love them. Most people will not also love their enemies. But to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect, we must love both their neighbor AND their enemies (people who hate us).


Peace again to you!

I agree entirely. This is why we Jehovah's Witnesses don't join the military as the premise for war is to kill our enemy rather than love them. Christians are commanded to be kind even to enemies whether they be German or Japanese even when the government declares those Germans or Japanese men and women the "enemy" we have to love them rather than try to kill them.



JW

[PinSeeker]

No, I apologize. I was unclear. I meant... most people will love those who love them. Most people will not also love their enemies. But to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect, we must love both their neighbor AND their enemies (people who hate us).

Peace again to you!

I agree entirely. This is why we Jehovah's Witnesses don't join the military as the premise for war is to kill our enemy rather than love them. Christians are commanded to be kind even to enemies whether they be German or Japanese even when the government declares those Germans or Japanese men and women the "enemy" we have to love them rather than try to kill them. JW

JW, David, in leading the Israelites of old, obviously didn't have a problem with conquering nations (and killing soldiers in the process). David, as you probably know, was a man after God's own heart. Too, it wasn't just David doing what God told him to do, we can read over and over again in 1st and 2nd Samuel where it wasn't just David going out and conquering peoples but God giving these nations over into David's hand.

The problem is that you're mixing the state with the individual. In other words, yes, Christians are to love their enemies, but this is a command to individuals concerning individual matters. The power of the state is a different thing, and everyone's resposibility (even Christians' individual responsibility) is to be subject to governing authorities, which may possibly include at least occasional compulsion to serve in that nation's military.

As such, we would agree that no individual, man or woman, Christian or otherwise, is given any kind of license, carte blanche, to go out and murder people. Such people commit crime (not to mention sin) and should be punished -- by the state -- for doing so, even to the fullest extent of the law. But I would argue that killing in war -- under the charge of the state and not the individual -- is not murder, and Jesus's teaching to "turn the other cheek," and thus to let the other guy kill you, does not apply here.

Now. Is all killing in war just killing and not murder? No, certainly murder can be committed even in war, and that should be prosecuted as such. Soldiers can still commit murder in war, and doing so is reprehensible.

But what Jehovah's Witnesses are guilty of is mixing Jesus's teaching concerning how individual Christians should treat other people in everyday life -- which, yes, is to love even our enemies -- with the power of the state and its dealing with other nations. The state (governing authority) -- according to Romans 13 -- only has authority given by God, because there is no authority except from God. Therefore, the state does not bear the sword for nothing, and is (or should be, anyway) a minister of God. And whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. Therefore it is necessary for us to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience sake. This is not my opinion, but straight out of the Bible (Romans 13). If you disagree, then that's okay with me, but you're disagreement is not really with me, but with the Bible... and God, actually.

Grace and peace to you.

[Divine Insight]

This is why we Jehovah's Witnesses don't join the military as the premise for war is to kill our enemy rather than love them.

JW

Actually that's not the premise of all nations that go to war.

In fact, there are often different motivations and goals for why people go to war.

For example Nazi Germany's motivation and goal was to capture and enslave other countries. And to possibly also murder anyone they deemed to not be useful to them.

However, the purpose of the coalition against Nazi Germany was DEFENSE against this aggression. Therefore it wasn't the premise of the coalition to go to war to "kill" Germans, but rather to stop their aggression. So the premise was DEFENSE, not to kill.

Sure killing was an unfortunate necessary part of the defense because the German's weren't about to stop their aggression by simply being politely asked to stop it.

However, in theory, if Nazi Germany were to offer to stop their aggression and leave the countries they had taken offer peacefully, then there would be no need for a defensive war against them. But of course, they weren't about to peacefully offer to do that.

So it's wrong to say that the purpose of war is to kill the enemy. In fact, after the coalition won the war did they go into Germany and just kill all the Germans? Nope. So clearly killing the enemy was not their goal or purpose.

I might point out that in Biblical wars that were directed by God, killing the enemy was indeed God's plan. He instructed his people to kill every man, woman, and child. Save for possible virgin girls that the soldiers could take home as their own concubines and slaves.

So I guess if you read the Bible too much I can see why you would think that the premise of war is to kill the enemy since this is how the Biblical God conducted his wars.

But clearly not all human wars are conducted on that premise.

[JehovahsWitness]

No, I apologize. I was unclear. I meant... most people will love those who love them. Most people will not also love their enemies. But to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect, we must love both their neighbor AND their enemies (people who hate us).

Peace again to you!

I agree entirely. This is why we Jehovah's Witnesses don't join the military as the premise for war is to kill our enemy rather than love them. Christians are commanded to be kind even to enemies whether they be German or Japanese even when the government declares those Germans or Japanese men and women the "enemy" we have to love them rather than try to kill them. JW

JW, David, in leading the Israelites of old, obviously didn't have a problem with conquering nations (and killing soldiers in the process).

Well personally I don't believe David was a Christian. He was a servant of God but not in my opinion under Christian law which prohibits "living by the sword", Hebrew law has no such prohibition.


Just my personal opinion,

JW

[PinSeeker]

Well personally I don't believe David was a Christian. He was a servant of God but not in my opinion under Christian law which prohibits "living by the sword", Hebrew law has no such prohibition.


Just my personal opinion,

JW

Is that what all Jehovah's Witnesses believe? Or is that just what you bellieve?

[William]

[Replying to post 23 by Divine Insight]

Along with this reasoning it can be supposed that if the Allies had not risen to defend the world against Nazism then the JW.Org would unlikely exist today. Essentially Allied soldiers sacrificed their own lives so that - among other things - JWs could have the continued freedom to knock on doors, join debating forums, etc, in order to spread their version of 'the truth'...

Indeed, without the allied soldiers, the 'love your enemies' people would have been totally exterminated by those enemies, as per the Final Solution ideology.

[JehovahsWitness]

Well personally I don't believe David was a Christian. He was a servant of God but not in my opinion under Christian law which prohibits "living by the sword", Hebrew law has no such prohibition.


Just my personal opinion,

JW

Is that what all Jehovah's Witnesses believe? Or is that just what you bellieve?

Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe joining the military is compatible with the command to "love our enemies"; we apply the bible principle to "learn war no more" and be "peacemakers" to ourselves. It is a historical fact that JWs do not engage or support any man made wars.



Further Reading: Why Dont Jehovahs Witnesses Go to War?
https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... go-to-war/


RELATED POSTS

(See below)

[JehovahsWitness]

WAR [Index]


Is the God of the bible "anti-war"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 074#839074

Did early Christians join the military?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 183#788183

Do the Divine wars in the bible authorize Christians to participate in human conflicts?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 364#827364

Are Jehovah's Witnesses "cowards and opportunists"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 988#881988

What did Jesus mean by "turn the other cheek"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 650#773650

Does Romans 13 not command Christians to be in subjection to authorities as to God?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 449#930449

[JehovahsWitness]

yes, Christians are to love their enemies, but this is a command to individuals concerning individual matters. The power of the state is a different thing, and everyone's resposibility (even Christians' individual responsibility) is to be subject to governing authorities, which may possibly include at least occasional compulsion to serve in that nation's military.

We [JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES] do not believe any government, establishment, organizatin or human institution has the authority to overide or abrogate a divine law or command. Thus when a political or civil institution or body commands us to do something God prohibits in his word the bible (or to refrain from doing something God has commanded we do) they are going beyond their authority and we take the position that divine law must be obeyed (rather than human law).





QUESTION: Are Christians not commanded in Romans 13:3-5 to obey human governments and authorities?


Yes, however, Christian submission or subjection to human authority will always be "relative" meaning we will obey as long as it does not compel us to break a divine law or principle as outlined in the Holy bible. All human authorities, governments and institutions are, as Romans says "placed" in their position by God, meaning he has allowed them to occupy their position due to its being God's will at the present time that they do so; however, their position was never, and will never be above Almighty God Himself. Thus no government has the right to nullify or abrogate a divine law; it is this relative subjection (see article below) that Christians are obliged to display. Since Christians are commanded in the bible to love everyone, and treat everyone as their "neighbour" even their "enemies", we believe no human government or institution has the right to command us to kill them or engage in any process or procedure to that end.





RELATED POSTS

Relative Submission [Romans 13:1]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 978#853978

Further Reading Our Relative Subjection to the Superior Authorities
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1990806