If science cant explain everything.. Scientific Materialism

[Tart]

I personally think we are all born with a wonder in our consciousness. Something that tells us that our reality might not be as what it seems, that there may be something mysterious and unexplained in our consciousness.. Something beyond our reasoning...

And we see this manifesting in peoples thoughts all the time... There are sooo many claims (even scientific claims) that go beyond our reasoning.. Like mind over matter, or infinite parallel universes, multiverses, aliens, ghosts, the afterlife, telekinesis, out of body experiences, past lives, the "matrix", mysticism, sorcery, magic, etc... We see people, who honestly wonder about the possibilities of many of these things, perhaps all of us have had these kinds of thoughts amusing the unexplained...

I mean even science, and scientist, and even atheist scientist have amused some of these possibilities, like the multiverse.. The multiverse (something that there is no evidence of) is a theory that came up in a rebuttal against God creating THIS universe... (Ill put a scientific video below that suggest "mind over matter" is a real thing)

But then when we come to the idea of God, all of these wonders turn away and people are certain that God cant exist, that miracle cant happen, that there is no after life, there is no soul, etc.... As soon as God gets into the picture, all these wonders that we are born with contemplating, are trashed as a means of mocking and discrediting anything out of the inexplicable, and everything boils down to cold hard science... This is Scientific Materialism.... This is why David Berlinski (atheist philosopher) says in his book "The Devils Delusion" that "scientific atheism is a frivolous exercise in intellectual contempt"... It is this notion that nothing inexplicable exist, that everything is explained, and anything beyond explanation (like God) is mocked...

Its a frivolous exercise in intellectual contempt...

To me, this seems like a complete indoctrination of atheism... And is there any proof that there is nothing beyond these cold hard explanations? No... But it is assumed....

So if you play around with any of these thoughts, how come you discredit God automatically? If something like "mind over matter" is true, how can you say the divine is false? (example: video below)...

(Personally i think Christianity explains in perfectly.. 2 Thessalonians 2:10-11)

[youtube][/youtube]

[DeMotts]

[Replying to post 30 by Guy Threepwood]

more to the point though, if the victim was found with a knife in his back, should the Jury be told to reject any involvement of intelligent agency? It must restrict it's conclusions to some sort of unintended accident/ spontaneous mechanism?

A better analogy would be that the jury would be told that it is likely a real, provable agent such as a human committed the murder and not a ghost or demon. This is why humans are often charged with crimes and very rarely do we hold paranormal entities responsible for misdeeds.

[Guy Threepwood]

[Replying to post 31 by DeMotts]

the jury would be told that it is likely a real, provable agent such as a human committed the murder and not a ghost or demon.

or a real provable mechanism, not a flying spaghetti multiverse, accumulation of random mutations or other unobservable speculative mechanism...

[bluethread]

quote="DeMotts"]

So, why should we believe in scientific materialism, if it can not explain everything?

You are free to believe in whatever you want. You should believe in scientific materialism as a default position until proven otherwise because it is logical, and the best means we have at arriving at universal truth.[/quote]

Who said I wasn't free to believe whateve I want? The OP is asking whether the view that one's philosphy must explain everything in the case of theism also applies to scientific materialism. What you are saying is not scientific fact but opinion based on your philosophy and it does not address the question of the OP.

If you were on trial for a murder you didn't commit, would you want your jury to judge you based on evidence collected by the standards of scientific materialism? Would you be ok with the judge allowing men of faith, paranormal investigators, psychics and fortune tellers, alien abductees, to be heard with full credence?

No, I would want evidence collected not only scientifically, but in an unbiased fashion. Scientific Materialism is a philosophy and would thus introduce bias. I would also like testimony from witnesses, both direct and expert, and testimony is not scientific.

"Your honor I sense a bad aura around the defendant. I feel that god is communicating through me and telling me that we should convict him." Would that be acceptable testimony for you? Why or why not?

No more than it would be acceptable for one to argue, "Your honor, the witnesses for the defence did not use scientific methods when they observed the incident, and what occured is scientifically murder, therefore, we should convict him." Science, law and philosophy are not the same thing, niether are they mutually exclusive. So, to tie this back to the OP, since murder is a legal/moral concept and not a scientific concept, should we exclude all science from the court room?

[Tart]

[Replying to post 22 by Tart]

Muhammed would support the reality of a false prophet, soemthing Jesus warns against, becuase Christianity is consistent with our reality.

Also, what do you mean by the statement "Christianity is consistent with our reality"? That is a vague, generic statement. There are many stories in the bible that are clearly not consistent with our reality (eg. the creation story of Genesis, Noah's flood, tower of babel being the source of languages, Jonah living in the belly of a great fish for longer than he could hold his breath, the sun "standing still" in the sky so Joshua could win his battle, dead humans coming back to life in several instances besides the purported resurrection of Jesus, humans having afterlives, etc.). These are all myths and are positively inconsistent with reality. But maybe you are referring to something else? How is Christianity consistent with our reality?

[Replying to post 22 by Tart]
I'm 100% with DrNoGods - how in the world is Christianity consistent with reality? Let's start with the examples that DNG just gave.

Great question... How is Christianity consistent with reality? To answer that, I would suggest to you that you investigate Christianity with an open mind... That is why i converted to Christian... I was in a jail cell, and someone gave me a New Testament and it blew my away...

The New Testament reveals things that only a God could know. Personal Revelations of ones self, of the world around one, and of God... They call this "Revelational Epistemology"...

So how does Christianity reveal truth that is consistent with reality? Lets start with the basics: Jesus as a personal savoir, that the spirit can be embedded within people, it reveals to us our sin, it reveals the truth about God's nature. It reveals the struggles with the flesh, the understanding of salvation and redemption. Christianity reveals what is righteousness, morality, what the law has to do with any of this (like how the law relates to our own actions, how the law was fulfilled in Christ, and its purpose). This actually converted a famous lawyer who was like an atheist, his name was Simon Greenleef and he was an expert on "evidence" and founder of Harvard Law School (our first law school). Greenleef went from atheist to Christian while being an expert in evidence... It was from his studies, which certainly dealt with the idea of "law" itself...

There is no better document to study, then the New Testament, when it comes to understanding the law, or morality and righteousness, sin and the human struggle with sin, our roles here on earth, and our relationships... That is our relationships with the world around us, and all those in the world, with the church, and with God...

The New Testament is by far the number one place to go to, to study wisdom and knowledge. Period


The Bible has explanatory value that is unmatched, in these areas....


For example, you bring up a point that the stories in the Bible are myths.. Like it is foolishness to even consider these things... But scripture tells us...

"16 For we did not follow cleverly devised stories ["myth", from the Greek word "mythos" where the word comes from] when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty."~Peter... (note*, here Peter objects to the idea that Christianity is a myth)


"18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.�
20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength."~Paul (1 Corinthians 1)


Certainly, Christianity is consistent with our reality, and even with your attitudes toward it...


"And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations"~Jesus
God has already mapped out destiny.

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to post 34 by Tart]

To answer that, I would suggest to you that you investigate Christianity with an open mind... That is why i converted to Christian... I was in a jail cell, and someone gave me a New Testament and it blew my away...

I was completely immersed in Christianity for the first 18 years of my life so lived it at home, church, school, boy scouts, and all the rest. It is not like I have no experience with religion or was ever exposed to it, and then decided to be an atheist. It was only after investigating religions with an open mind in my 20s that I decided that I didn't believe any of them were "true", and so adopted an atheist position. I've seen nothing in the roughly 35 years since then to convince me to change that position.

The New Testament is by far the number one place to go to, to study wisdom and knowledge. Period

The Bible has explanatory value that is unmatched, in these areas....

Obviously, some people see it that way and adopt Christianity as their religion. I've read the New Testament (King James version) and see it as nothing more than a collection of writings from nearly 2000 years ago that has no relevance to the modern world. Basic morality does not come from religion ... it is innate in social animals of all types as you can easily confirm by observation. Sin is a religious concept and has no meaning outside of a religious context.

For example, you bring up a point that the stories in the Bible are myths.. Like it is foolishness to even consider these things... But scripture tells us...

More quoting of bible verses, which have no relevance in this thread. From the OP:

So if you play around with any of these thoughts, how come you discredit God automatically? If something like "mind over matter" is true, how can you say the divine is false? (example: video below)...

Gods are only postulated to exist. From the first time a human had the idea of a deity, to the present time, there is never been any evidence that any of the thousands of gods that humans have invented actually exist as real beings. IMO they are imaginary until that situation changes. So it isn't a matter of discrediting any particular human-invented god, it is just that these imaginary beings are not necessary to explain nature, or anything else. So why believe that they exist, or that any of the many religions developed around god concepts are worth attention?

[Tart]

[Replying to post 34 by Tart]

To answer that, I would suggest to you that you investigate Christianity with an open mind... That is why i converted to Christian... I was in a jail cell, and someone gave me a New Testament and it blew my away...

I was completely immersed in Christianity for the first 18 years of my life so lived it at home, church, school, boy scouts, and all the rest. It is not like I have no experience with religion or was ever exposed to it, and then decided to be an atheist. It was only after investigating religions with an open mind in my 20s that I decided that I didn't believe any of them were "true", and so adopted an atheist position. I've seen nothing in the roughly 35 years since then to convince me to change that position.

Well, more times then not, we see people claiming to be Christians just because they were raised in a Christian home... Personally, i dont believe in child indoctrination, growing up in a Christian household is not the same as being a "born again" Christian... I suspect many of these claims, never came to terms with a truly inspired belief in Jesus as the Messiah (the Christ) and a personal savior, and in him risen from death... Just that they were going along with their family...

That is what i suspect... We have an abundance of evidence that can prove to anyone who seeks God... I truly believe all who seek will find, which is words from Jesus himself.

I mentioned Simon Greenleef, this man was a grown man, well educated, world renown expert on "evidence"... And while he was in this position, and founder of Harvard Law School, he thought Jesus was a legend and the resurrection was a myth. He was challenged by his students to investigate the evidence before he came to a conclusion about it, which was a principle he lived and taught by... To investigate the evidence BEFORE coming to a conclusion... (This is a simpler story for many of us too)..

Simon quoted later saying (a quote i fully agree with).
"Of the Divine character of the Bible, I think, no man who deals honestly with his own mind and heart can entertain a reasonable doubt, For myself, I must say, that having for many years made the evidences of Christianity the subject of close study, the result has been a firm and increasing conviction of the authenticity and plenary inspiration of the Bible. It is indeed the Word of God."~Simon Greenleef


So claiming your personal experience, of seeking with an open mind, just doesnt add up to the truth as i know it... Just saying...

The New Testament is by far the number one place to go to, to study wisdom and knowledge. Period

The Bible has explanatory value that is unmatched, in these areas....

Obviously, some people see it that way and adopt Christianity as their religion. I've read the New Testament (King James version) and see it as nothing more than a collection of writings from nearly 2000 years ago that has no relevance to the modern world. Basic morality does not come from religion ... it is innate in social animals of all types as you can easily confirm by observation. Sin is a religious concept and has no meaning outside of a religious context.

This is words from a blind man... You cant see beyond your reasoning like we can... You cant see the magnitude of evidence pointing directly as Christ... It is astonishing how closed peoples eyes are. Our society, our laws, our culture is built on the foundations of the New Covenant brought on by Jesus... I mean even our years, the way we count our years, point to Christ, because Christ changed everything... He is the cornerstone of the temple, and it is SOO clear that Jesus was in fulfillment or prophecy from ancient times, and the the prophecy is on going to now. That destiny is mapped by an all knwoing God... Are you sure you have read the entire scripture? Jesus embodied Truth itself, where he took of the identity of our logical reasoning in "Logos". Where he served as the pinnacle of righteousness. Where He made sense of the law, of sin and judgement. Freewill. Jesus is the Truth for man. Period... It is astonishing how blind some are to the true magnitude of evidence, and the explanatory power that Jesus has. Our world rests on evidence pointing to God. And without God, nothing makes sense...

I think humans probably created false gods, because they were made in the image of God... They can reason like God... Dont let all the false gods tell you the one true God doesnt exist...

For example, you bring up a point that the stories in the Bible are myths.. Like it is foolishness to even consider these things... But scripture tells us...

More quoting of bible verses, which have no relevance in this thread. From the OP:

Listen, if you are going to reference the Bible as if it is evidence against itself, and ask "how is Christianity consistent with reality"... I am surely going to reference the Bible... You referenced the Bible yourself, and asked for it to be referenced.

I quoted 3 verses, that are consistent with reality, like you asked...

But do you just disregard scripture, as a default? Like as you just did... "scripture is meaningless to me so dont quote it"... lol.. Becuase that is very telling of you... You do claim to have been a Christian... right? Or has this been your true attitude towards it? (the evidence is stacking up against you).

So if you play around with any of these thoughts, how come you discredit God automatically? If something like "mind over matter" is true, how can you say the divine is false? (example: video below)...

Gods are only postulated to exist. From the first time a human had the idea of a deity, to the present time, there is never been any evidence that any of the thousands of gods that humans have invented actually exist as real beings. IMO they are imaginary until that situation changes. So it isn't a matter of discrediting any particular human-invented god, it is just that these imaginary beings are not necessary to explain nature, or anything else. So why believe that they exist, or that any of the many religions developed around god concepts are worth attention?

Becuase our nature as human being is created in the likeness of God.. This is what our foundations rest on... Ancient Egypt ruled, precisely because they thought they were gods, that the gods gave them the power to rule. Ancient Greece reasoned, precisely becuase they thought they could reason like gods. Rome, ruled as if they were like gods... Jesus then changed everything, and embedded God within Him, and showed us how we are made in the likeness of God. Now our world rests on the foundation of God, that was built by God.

Dont be so blind man!
So this is what the Sovereign LORD says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a tested stone, a precious cornerstone for a sure foundation~Isaiah

These things you dismiss as foolishness... They are our foundations!

[DrNoGods]

[Replying to post 36 by Tart]

I quoted 3 verses, that are consistent with reality, like you asked...

But do you just disregard scripture, as a default? Like as you just did... "scripture is meaningless to me so dont quote it"... lol.. Becuase that is very telling of you... You do claim to have been a Christian... right? Or has this been your true attitude towards it? (the evidence is stacking up against you).

I was objecting to the presentation of "scripture" as if it were proof of anything. You are not presenting these bible verses as examples, or as clarification of a point being made, but as justification or proof of a point (ie. .. "my point is proven because here are bible verses that support it."). These are very different.

I was at one point a Christian, technically, because I believed what I was told as a child, that god existed and was the Christian god, I was baptized, was "saved" (in the parlance of Christianity), etc. It was only when I decided to study the different religions of the world after interacting with people of different faiths (Hindu and Muslim in particular) that I concluded that none of them could possibly be true. And the gross inconsistency between many of the active religions of today was further proof to me that instead of just one of them being true, none of them were.

I suppose I have the attitude toward claims of gods that Voltaire did in his criticism of Pascal's wager when he said "the interest I have to believe a thing is no proof that such a thing exists." I see no reason to believe that gods of any kind exist, or ever have, and they are not necessary to explain nature or any aspect of it. Many people are in situations where they need a crutch like religion to lean on, and once they find one they like and that satisfies this need they become devout practitioners.

But that doesn't mean that their selected religious doctrines are true, or that their particular god is the "one true god" as every monotheist religion claims for their god (and which obviously can't be correct). It just means they have found a functional crutch, or community to be a part of, that satisfies their particular need. Sit down with a devout Hindu and debate Christianity vs. Hinduism, and I'd bet neither of you would convince the other to change their minds. This is how religion usually works ... once someone is convinced they have found the "correct" religion, they will defend it at all costs without any regard to rational analysis of its "truth" in a practical (or scientific) sense. Faith takes over and evidence becomes irrelevant.

[Bust Nak]

I personally think we are all born with a wonder in our consciousness...

Like mind over matter, or infinite parallel universes, multiverses, aliens, ghosts, the afterlife, telekinesis, out of body experiences, past lives, the "matrix", mysticism, sorcery, magic, etc... We see people, who honestly wonder about the possibilities of many of these things, perhaps all of us have had these kinds of thoughts amusing the unexplained...

But then when we come to the idea of God, all of these wonders turn away and people are certain that God cant exist, that miracle cant happen, that there is no after life, there is no soul, etc....

What made you think the mocking and discrediting you speak of isn't the result of having wondered about the possibility of God, afterlife and soul?

I play around with thoughts of ghosts and alies just as I play around with thoughts of God. It is not dismissed automatically.

[bluethread]

What made you think the mocking and discrediting you speak of isn't the result of having wondered about the possibility of God, afterlife and soul?

I play around with thoughts of ghosts and alies just as I play around with thoughts of God. It is not dismissed automatically.

Maybe a large part of the problem is that both sides need to be more civil and accepting of the perspective of the other side. Admittedly, theists insisting that there must be a diety makes it appear that they are anti-science. However, non-theists mocking and discrediting theism also poisons the waters. Taking Jordan Peterson's mythological approach might lead to more civil discourse and help keep the discussions focused on the specific issues being discussed. The theists can allow non-believer's to view theism as part of a multigenerational mythology. The non-theists can allow that mythology is not necessarily wrong, but the means by which people communicate principles from generation to generation. In short, science and mythology are just methodologies. The first a means of verfying things based on current experimentation and the latter a means of multigenerational communication. Niether can explain everything, but together they allow us to expand our understanding.

[Tart]

[Replying to post 36 by Tart]

I quoted 3 verses, that are consistent with reality, like you asked...

But do you just disregard scripture, as a default? Like as you just did... "scripture is meaningless to me so dont quote it"... lol.. Becuase that is very telling of you... You do claim to have been a Christian... right? Or has this been your true attitude towards it? (the evidence is stacking up against you).

I was objecting to the presentation of "scripture" as if it were proof of anything. You are not presenting these bible verses as examples, or as clarification of a point being made, but as justification or proof of a point (ie. .. "my point is proven because here are bible verses that support it."). These are very different.

You asked how Christianity is consistent with reality, and named a bunch of stories you think are myths... The verses I gave are not to show "its true because they say its true", but to demonstrate the reality of Christianity.

The New Testament cant be a myth. Period... That is to say, Jesus and Him as the Messiah, and Risen from Death... Those aspects of the New Testament, cant be myths... Maybe lies, or soemthing else, but we cant make sense of these being myths (or can you? Ill allow for your reasoning to try and make sense of this)... We have quotes from nearly all the witnesses of Jesus saying this ISNT a myth (1 Peter 1)... They specifically say these arent myths, and that the witnessed these things.. Paul even goes on to say that if the Resurrection of Christ didnt literally happen, that then the Faith of Christianity is useless, and that those who testify that Jesus rose from the dead are false witnesses about God... (1 Corinthians 15)... They said, if these things didnt literally happen, then those who claim so should be found to be liars..

So can it be myth? No, that doesnt make any sense... The evidence tells us no. Is there some other explanation? Maybe..? Like they lied about Christ? But the problem is there is no evidence to support that... You need a better explanation then to assume Jesus, and his resurrection is a myth.. We would need some kind of explanation that makes sense, given the evidence.

That was the point of the quote from Peter..

The quote from 1 Corinthians 1, written by Paul, was to show that Christianity is consistent with reality... I mean, I could have picked nearly any quote in the New Testament (specifically the epistles), to support the idea that Christianity is consistent with reality, because it is. But i chose 1 Corinthians 1 specifically to point out that YOUR attitude itself, is consistent with Christian teachings... The foolishness of God, as it was called..

And finally the last quote was a prophecy. That "this message of the kingdom shall be preached to all nations..." This is consistent with reality... Not only that, but it is a prophetic claim of huge magnitude that is being fulfilled... The likely hood of this prophecies fulfillment, is very unlikely, yet here we are.

These Biblical quotes were in response to YOUR questions... You dont have to take them are true, but we should at least be able to explain and make sense out of them.. Whether you think they are myths, lies, or anything else... You'd need explanations for that...

How do you make sense of them?