The Gospel of John quotes Jesus as saying "unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you."
For debate,
-Did King David, Moses, Elijah or any of the other heroes or heroines of the "Old" Testament/Hebrew Bible eat the flesh or drink the blood of the Messiah?
-If so, how so? If not, did they have any "life" in them? The kind Jesus was speaking of in John? (presumably eternal life)
Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood...
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Elijah John
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Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood...
Post #1 My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-
Elijah John
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Post #21
[Replying to post 18 by marco]
It depends which Jesus we are referring to. The Johannine Jesus is presented as mediator, and conduit to God. The Synpoptic Jesus preached direct access to the Father.
This in contrast to the legalistic, Temple based system mediated by the Priestly class.
In John, we have Jesus presented as the necessessary alternative to the Priestly system, in effect, the ultimate priest. The Synoptic Jesus, on the other hand, preaches direct access, direct access which needs no mediator. What mediation, for example is taught in the LORD's prayer?
The Synoptic Jesus is far more in line with the Prophets, their teachings and their experiences.
It was not only Jesus who exemplified, and embodied the Torah.
Yes, King David was not perfect. But neither was Jesus. Both, however, were righteous.
And if one reads the Psalms, one will see direct access taught there as well. Are the Pslams for the masses? Or only for the elite?
It depends which Jesus we are referring to. The Johannine Jesus is presented as mediator, and conduit to God. The Synpoptic Jesus preached direct access to the Father.
This in contrast to the legalistic, Temple based system mediated by the Priestly class.
In John, we have Jesus presented as the necessessary alternative to the Priestly system, in effect, the ultimate priest. The Synoptic Jesus, on the other hand, preaches direct access, direct access which needs no mediator. What mediation, for example is taught in the LORD's prayer?
The Synoptic Jesus is far more in line with the Prophets, their teachings and their experiences.
It was not only Jesus who exemplified, and embodied the Torah.
Yes, King David was not perfect. But neither was Jesus. Both, however, were righteous.
And if one reads the Psalms, one will see direct access taught there as well. Are the Pslams for the masses? Or only for the elite?
My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
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RightReason
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onewithhim
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Re: Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood...
Post #23To answer your first question: No, David, Moses, Elijah & the other people of the OT did not do that, seeing as they didn't even know who the Messiah would be. Hence, their faith was counted to them for righteousness, as can be seen in what is written in Hebrews (Hebrews 11:7-13).Elijah John wrote: The Gospel of John quotes Jesus as saying "unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you."
For debate,
-Did King David, Moses, Elijah or any of the other heroes or heroines of the "Old" Testament/Hebrew Bible eat the flesh or drink the blood of the Messiah?
-If so, how so? If not, did they have any "life" in them? The kind Jesus was speaking of in John? (presumably eternal life)
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brianbbs67
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Post #24
[Replying to post 21 by RightReason]
This reminds me of an OT verse." There is a way that seems right to man..."
This reminds me of an OT verse." There is a way that seems right to man..."
Re: Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood...
Post #25[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]
No, they did not.
As you suggest, this life is presumably: eternal life. So, no they did not. Example: King David, in Ps. 16 makes a plea to God about his future death, which requests that he would not be left in his grave. However, Peter claims that he was still in his grave at the time (Acts 2:29) was written. So, when we review the O.T., relating to salvation for Israel it was to be achieved through obedience to God. Yet, all failed. This is referred to as: the Old Covenant. The New Covenant is the present means, where eternal life is offered. Those who lived and died under the Old Covenant will need to be resurrected (physical) and accept the Christ for who he is. The ones you mentioned and many others will accept this almost immediately upon their resurrection, but others, it will take longer and some may just refuse to accept.
But, it should be understood that "just" taking from the fruit of the vine (blood) and eating the bread (body) does not grant eternal life. There is much more to it.
Elijah John wrote: Did King David, Moses, Elijah or any of the other heroes or heroines of the "Old" Testament/Hebrew Bible eat the flesh or drink the blood of the Messiah?
No, they did not.
Elijah wrote:If not, did they have any "life" in them?
As you suggest, this life is presumably: eternal life. So, no they did not. Example: King David, in Ps. 16 makes a plea to God about his future death, which requests that he would not be left in his grave. However, Peter claims that he was still in his grave at the time (Acts 2:29) was written. So, when we review the O.T., relating to salvation for Israel it was to be achieved through obedience to God. Yet, all failed. This is referred to as: the Old Covenant. The New Covenant is the present means, where eternal life is offered. Those who lived and died under the Old Covenant will need to be resurrected (physical) and accept the Christ for who he is. The ones you mentioned and many others will accept this almost immediately upon their resurrection, but others, it will take longer and some may just refuse to accept.
But, it should be understood that "just" taking from the fruit of the vine (blood) and eating the bread (body) does not grant eternal life. There is much more to it.
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Elijah John
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Post #26
[Replying to post 21 by RightReason]
LOVE God, LOVE neighbor. That was the essence of Jesus teaching. Love has to do with the heart, a heart for God. Didn't King David have a "heart for God".
Please don't twist my words with a straw man, making it sound like I'm advocating some hippie "anything goes" philosphy I am not. Love is implemented by way of the Commandments.
I am simply contrasting the heart and the head. Theology resides in the head. No one is saved by being "theologically correct". Jesus emphasized love leading to action. Call it "works" if you must, but "works" with the right motivation, pleases God. Remember the parable of the sheep and the goats. And this from Jesus brother James. "You believe that God is one, you do well. The devils also believe, and tremble."
Was James point about the importance of believing the right things? Or about putting one's faith and belief into action.
Besides, if James was including right belief in the phrase doing "well", he was referring to the oneness of God, not the Trinity. Shema, the Oneness of God to James constituted "right belief".
LOVE God, LOVE neighbor. That was the essence of Jesus teaching. Love has to do with the heart, a heart for God. Didn't King David have a "heart for God".
Please don't twist my words with a straw man, making it sound like I'm advocating some hippie "anything goes" philosphy I am not. Love is implemented by way of the Commandments.
I am simply contrasting the heart and the head. Theology resides in the head. No one is saved by being "theologically correct". Jesus emphasized love leading to action. Call it "works" if you must, but "works" with the right motivation, pleases God. Remember the parable of the sheep and the goats. And this from Jesus brother James. "You believe that God is one, you do well. The devils also believe, and tremble."
Was James point about the importance of believing the right things? Or about putting one's faith and belief into action.
Besides, if James was including right belief in the phrase doing "well", he was referring to the oneness of God, not the Trinity. Shema, the Oneness of God to James constituted "right belief".
My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-
Elijah John
- Savant
- Posts: 12236
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:23 pm
- Location: New England
- Has thanked: 11 times
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Post #27
[Replying to post 21 by RightReason]
You're conflating "Truth" with theology. The two are not one in the same. Theologians, can be wrong too, and often were. Much of Paul's redemption theology depended upon a literal Adam and Eve, and Garden fall story. And the Fathers of the Church derived their theology mostly from Paul. Faulty foundations, if you ask me.
You're conflating "Truth" with theology. The two are not one in the same. Theologians, can be wrong too, and often were. Much of Paul's redemption theology depended upon a literal Adam and Eve, and Garden fall story. And the Fathers of the Church derived their theology mostly from Paul. Faulty foundations, if you ask me.
My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-
Elijah John
- Savant
- Posts: 12236
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:23 pm
- Location: New England
- Has thanked: 11 times
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Re: Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood...
Post #28[Replying to post 24 by FWI]
Then why wasn't the "essential" role of the future Messiah in spiritual salvation made abundantly and repeatedly clear to the ancient Israelites?
Were they attempting to please God in vainl by trying to observe HIS Commandments?
There is only one Saviour in the Hebew Bible, and his name is YHVH. (Yah). Not the Messiah, not Jesus.
Then why wasn't the "essential" role of the future Messiah in spiritual salvation made abundantly and repeatedly clear to the ancient Israelites?
Were they attempting to please God in vainl by trying to observe HIS Commandments?
There is only one Saviour in the Hebew Bible, and his name is YHVH. (Yah). Not the Messiah, not Jesus.
Isaiah 43.11I, even I am YHVH, and beside me there is no saviour.
My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-
RightReason
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Elijah John
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- Posts: 12236
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:23 pm
- Location: New England
- Has thanked: 11 times
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Post #30
No evidence that James' theology included the Trinity. Just the absolute Oneness of God. Shema-monotheism. "You believe that God is one, you do well..." Notice he did not say, "you believe that God is Triune, you do well...Why not? Did James believe wrongly when he in effect, re-affimed the Shema, the absolute Oneness of God?RightReason wrote:
But if one believes the wrong thing how can that be putting his faith into action?Was James point about the importance of believing the right things? Or about putting one's faith and belief into action.
And even though James probably did not believe that same way you do, what is your guess, was James "saved"?
My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
