Have we anything to learn from the prophets?

[marco]

If it were possible to invite one of the old prophets into our house, have him deloused and given a long bath, what could he tell us, assuming conversation were possible? Perhaps we could surprise him by flicking on a light and announcing "Let there be light!"


I am often told to read my OT and learn from it. Perhaps I will be advised to beat children lest they get spoiled; kill witches and homosexuals; or on the positive side I might hope and trust in the Lord, live frugally and treat others well.

What do the prophets tell us we don't already know? Are they redundant?

[Mithrae]

Jesus, a fellow supposedly reviled by the religio-political institutions of his day, said to do to others as you'd have them do to you. He wasn't the first in that, besides his more proactive formulation of the 'golden rule.' And yet a mere ten or fifteen centuries later, folk declaring themselves to be followers of Jesus were burning people at the stake because some other folk in their village knew the right accusations to make to their religio-political institutions.

So is there still something to learn there? Well... I'm thinking yes.

In fact there is a case to be made that the sixth great extinction of our planet's four billion year history is occurring under the aegis of industrial civilization and - while there are undoubtedly folk who'll insist otherwise - I think that the correlation and evidence of causation is pretty much indisputable. The message of Jesus, by contrast, was radically anti-materialist and hence (a couple of millennia later) radically anti-capitalist: To reject working for money and reject accumulation of possessions. Did Jesus 'foresee' that sort of outcome? I dunno - but there certainly seem to be valuable lessons to be learned from those teachings, even if not quite to biblical extremes, just as Jesus apparently learned from earlier prophets yet disputed some of their teachings.

[Divine Insight]

What do the prophets tell us we don't already know? Are they redundant?

Clearly there are "moral stories" written in the Bible from which we can gain insight into various aspects of life. But isn't this true of all human literature?

In a secular setting instead of calling these people "prophets", we call the philosophers, or poets, or humanitarians, etc.

The main thing to realize is that a "Prophet" is supposed to be relaying messages, directives, and in many cases, actual commandments or directives from a creator God. A God that had supposedly created us and has specific things he demands or expect from us.

So for me, the real question isn't whether or not we can learn from a "Prophet" but rather the real question is; "Does the prophet speak for a creator God?"

And this is where I see many problems. Even in some of the Biblical stories where I can glean some sort of moral lesson, I still see major problems with those stories overall. And apparently so do theists and apologists, because even they draw different moral conclusions from the stories.

I would expect that if these stories truly came from an infinitely intelligent divine source then the stories should be extremely well-written with no room for ambiguity or misunderstanding. Clearly this is not the case with the stories associated with biblical prophets.

So the real question isn't, "Can we learn anything from the prophets?"

But rather the real question is, "Do the prophets speak for any God?"

And for me the answer to the latter question is clearly, "No".

So the prophets aren't any better than philosophers and poets. And in many cases, the philosophers and poets actually might have more intelligent things to say.

[showme]

If it were possible to invite one of the old prophets into our house, have him deloused and given a long bath, what could he tell us, assuming conversation were possible? Perhaps we could surprise him by flicking on a light and announcing "Let there be light!"


I am often told to read my OT and learn from it. Perhaps I will be advised to beat children lest they get spoiled; kill witches and homosexuals; or on the positive side I might hope and trust in the Lord, live frugally and treat others well.

What do the prophets tell us we don't already know? Are they redundant?

Like the testimony of Yeshua, which was in parables, much the same as prophets like Daniel (Daniel 12:10), spoke in a way to keep the "wicked" in the dark. The unveiling to those with insight was sealed until the "end of the age" (Daniel 12:9) & (Matthew 13). Until the "end of the age" the beast with 7 heads reigns, and the daughters of Babylon, who have sat on the heads of that beast (Revelation 17) have reigned. The timing for the end of the age of lies, is when the nations surround Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:2) and Jerusalem is captured after being restored (joel 3:1). I would imagine that that time is just behind the door (Matthew 24:33). Hind sight should give you a view into what the prophets were talking about, but according to Revelation 9:21, the wicked will still not see.

[marco]

Jesus, a fellow supposedly reviled by the religio-political institutions of his day, said to do to others as you'd have them do to you. He wasn't the first in that, besides his more proactive formulation of the 'golden rule.' And yet a mere ten or fifteen centuries later, folk declaring themselves to be followers of Jesus were burning people at the stake because some other folk in their village knew the right accusations to make to their religio-political institutions.

So is there still something to learn there? Well... I'm thinking yes.

It seems to be that even when God's own emissary tells us something, we do the opposite. It also tells us that even God can fail in his best intentions. Also, prophets are more likely to be like Cassandra, who always spoke the truth but was never believed.

To reject working for money and reject accumulation of possessions. Did Jesus 'foresee' that sort of outcome? I dunno - but there certainly seem to be valuable lessons to be learned from those teachings, even if not quite to biblical extremes, just as Jesus apparently learned from earlier prophets yet disputed some of their teachings.

Had he said specifically that human technology will lead us into trouble, then that would be rather good. With a million others he advocated moderation in all things, kindness, generosity, humility and so on. I think the religious aspect of the prophets' message destroys the benefits of prudence they also impart. God often gets in the way of goodness.

[marco]

Until the "end of the age" the beast with 7 heads reigns, and the daughters of Babylon, who have sat on the heads of that beast (Revelation 17) have reigned.

I know that St. Simeon Stylites sat for 37 years on a platform at the top of a tall pillar, which presumably brought immense benefits to civilisation but I don't know of women riskily sitting for any length of time on the multiple heads of a beast, nor for how long they dared do this. Again I don't know what advantages accrued to human society. Anyway, I'm wondering in what way this information relates to prophecy.




The timing for the end of the age of lies, is when the nations surround Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:2) and Jerusalem is captured after being restored (joel 3:1). I would imagine that that time is just behind the door (Matthew 24:33). Hind sight should give you a view into what the prophets were talking about, but according to Revelation 9:21, the wicked will still not see.[/quote]

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by marco]

Well we would never have known the Divine Name YHWH had it not been revealed through Moses and the biblical Prophtes. That's one thing.

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 1 by marco]

Well we would never have known the Divine Name YHWH had it not been revealed through Moses and the biblical Prophtes. That's one thing.

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

But how do we know that there is any truth to those claims?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 8 by Divine Insight]


That's another, albeit related question that was not asked in the OP. I might go over to the theology forum and post my thoughts on finding truth within a supernatural context over there. I believe the topic for discussion here was:

What do the prophets tell us we don't already know? Are they redundant?


JW

[Elijah John]

If it were possible to invite one of the old prophets into our house, have him deloused and given a long bath, what could he tell us, assuming conversation were possible? Perhaps we could surprise him by flicking on a light and announcing "Let there be light!"


I am often told to read my OT and learn from it. Perhaps I will be advised to beat children lest they get spoiled; kill witches and homosexuals; or on the positive side I might hope and trust in the Lord, live frugally and treat others well.

What do the prophets tell us we don't already know? Are they redundant?

To love kindness, do justice and walk humbly with thy God. That last part a lesson lost on many Christians, and certainly on many or most atheists.

How can one walk humbly with God if one does not believe in Him?

Each prophet was sent to a spedific time and place, and to deliver God's message in that particular context.

They seemed to have both timeless and universal messages, and temoral ones of immediate warning and admonition.

Redundant? Not really, each had a somewhat unique take, even on their universal messaging.