Wishful thinking

[bluethread]

Another thread argues that theism is not wishful thinking. So, what is wrong with wishful thinking? Wishful thinking has been the drive behind most, if not all, modern innovation and, according to Jordon Peterson, it is necessary for proper mental health.

[Divine Insight]

I agree that there is nothing wrong with wishful thinking.

However there is a huge difference between wishful thinking, and demanding that some specific theology supposedly makes sense or should be considered to be the commandments, directives, and instructions from some God.

I personally have no problem at all with people who simply "wish" that there could be a mystical magical essence to life so that when we die we'll all just wake up and find out it was all just a harmless dream. I most certainly "wish" that could be true too.

But that's not going to cause me to take up arms and argue that it must be true.

Also, I'd like to be specific here since this was posted in Christianity and Apologetics.

Let's face it, Christian theology is an extremely dismal reality. What are we being promised to be "saved" from?

Well, we are all supposedly plagued with a horrible sinful nature that no human can possibly manage or control on their own. For if they could there would be no reason for an external divine "savior" to save us from this impossible predicament.

Would I really want to "wish" that I am in such a hopeless situation that there is absolutely nothing I could ever do to warrant or earn my own salvation?

I can't imagine why I would want to "wish" that I was in such a hopeless predicament.

Christian apologists argue that I should be thrilled that I am being offered 'Free Amnesty' for being in this impossible situation and all that I need to do is accept Christ as my 'savior' and all will be well.

But I don't see how this changes anything. I would still be in a predicament where I am a hopelessly disgusting and evil person and can't do anything about it other than ask someone else to "forgive me" for being in this impossible situation in the first place.

This is still not something I would "wish" for.

To the contrary, if I were going to "wish" for a mystical magical reality there are far more positive religions I would choose to "wish" were true by far.

So for me personally, Christianity would never make it onto my "wish list". It's an extremely dismal situation that I would never "wish" to find myself in.

Think about it,....

How many people would actually WISH to find themselves in such a dismal degrading situation that some God had to have his Son brutally crucified in order to offer them undeserved forgiveness for being such pathetically evil people?

I can't imagine why any sane and mentally healthy individual would actually "wish" to find themselves in such a hopelessly dismal situation.

Sure, being "saved" from such a dismal situation might seem bright once a person has accepted that they have no choice but to find themselves in this situation in the first place. Buy why would anyone "wish" to be in that situation in the first place?

I just don't see it.

So if I was going to "wish" for a mystical magical reality, there are far more positive and attractive religions that would make my wish list and Christianity would certainly not be among them.

I just can't understand why anyone would "wish" that they are doomed to be condemned to hell unless they beg a God for forgiveness for being such a pathetically evil and undeserving person.

You could hardly find a more self-derogatory and negative thing to wish for if you tried.

[Jagella]

Another thread argues that theism is not wishful thinking. So, what is wrong with wishful thinking? Wishful thinking has been the drive behind most, if not all, modern innovation and, according to Jordon Peterson, it is necessary for proper mental health.

In the case of Christianity, we have mere wishful thinking. In other words, Christian belief is really nothing more than wishful thinking. Of course, Christian apologetics tries to convince us otherwise.

[bluethread]

[Replying to post 2 by Divine Insight]

Well, I hope that your venting on Christianity made you feel better. However, the idea of entertaining wishful thinking does not validate all wishful thinking. There are many forms of wishful think with which I disagree. However, I would not fault those who engage in those forms of wishful thinking for wishful thinking. I would fault them for what they are wishing for, or how they plan on fulfilling those wishes.

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 2 by Divine Insight]

Well, I hope that your venting on Christianity made you feel better. However, the idea of entertaining wishful thinking does not validate all wishful thinking. There are many forms of wishful think with which I disagree. However, I would not fault those who engage in those forms of wishful thinking for wishful thinking. I would fault them for what they are wishing for, or how they plan on fulfilling those wishes.

I don't see why you would call my post "Venting on Christianity".

There are two very sound reasons for the content of my post.

1. You posted this thread in "Christianity and Apologetics".

Therefore it's safe to assume that your argument that wishful thinking makes some sort of sense is, (because of this forum topic) an argument that wishing that Christianity could be true also makes some sort of sense.

2. Christianity is a "desperation" religion based entirely on the claim that humans are disgustingly evil beyond anything that they could ever hope to do about it on their own. And the only way to "salvation" is to confess this dire predicament to be truthful, and to agree that it makes sense that their Creator God would be justified in having his only begotten Son brutally crucified by humans to make their undeserved salvation possible.

My question to you:

Are you in denial that this is indeed the crux of what Christianity is founded on?

After all, if you aren't a hopelessly evil person who is incapable of achieve a status of merit for your own salvation, then why should it have been necessary for some God to have humans brutally crucify his Son so you could be offered otherwise undeserved amnesty for your evil nature?

Does Christianity allow for you to be worthy of your own salvation? I think not.

And if that's the case, then why would it have been necessary for God to have humans brutally crucify his only begotten son for your sake? Humans could just take responsibility for their own salvation.

Why call the TRUTH that I speak of as "Venting on Christianity"?

Show me that I'm wrong.

Show me where, in Christianity, a person can merit their own salvation without any need to have God's only begotten Son brutally crucified to make their undeserved salvation possible.

If you can do that, then you can have Christians proclaiming that they can obtain their own salvation without any need to have anything to do with the crucifixion of Christ. But that would cause huge problems for this religion.

So before you accuse me of "Venting on Christianity", please show me where anything I've said above about the religion is wrong.

[Divine Insight]

There are many forms of wishful think with which I disagree. However, I would not fault those who engage in those forms of wishful thinking for wishful thinking. I would fault them for what they are wishing for, or how they plan on fulfilling those wishes.

So why would you wish that you are an evil person who cannot merit your own salvation?

Why would you put that on your wish list?

[bluethread]

Another thread argues that theism is not wishful thinking. So, what is wrong with wishful thinking? Wishful thinking has been the drive behind most, if not all, modern innovation and, according to Jordon Peterson, it is necessary for proper mental health.

In the case of Christianity, we have mere wishful thinking. In other words, Christian belief is really nothing more than wishful thinking. Of course, Christian apologetics tries to convince us otherwise.

As does every other philosophy, which reaches beyond what is, toward what could be, based on premises with which one might disagree. Many is the discovery and innovation that has been deemed "mere wishful thinking" in it's time.

[bluethread]

I don't see why you would call my post "Venting on Christianity".

There are two very sound reasons for the content of my post.

1. You posted this thread in "Christianity and Apologetics".

Therefore it's safe to assume that your argument that wishful thinking makes some sort of sense is, (because of this forum topic) an argument that wishing that Christianity could be true also makes some sort of sense.

That among other things. It is not exclusive to Christianity and I posted it here, because it is often used as a means of disposing of Christianity out of hand. My primary concern here is that one would see wishful thinking as a bad thing.

2. Christianity is a "desperation" religion based entirely on the claim that humans are disgustingly evil beyond anything that they could ever hope to do about it on their own. And the only way to "salvation" is to confess this dire predicament to be truthful, and to agree that it makes sense that their Creator God would be justified in having his only begotten Son brutally crucified by humans to make their undeserved salvation possible.

Hence my reference to you venting. This hardly sounds like an argument regarding "wishful thinking".

My question to you:

Are you in denial that this is indeed the crux of what Christianity is founded on?

After all, if you aren't a hopelessly evil person who is incapable of achieve a status of merit for your own salvation, then why should it have been necessary for some God to have humans brutally crucify his Son so you could be offered otherwise undeserved amnesty for your evil nature?

Does Christianity allow for you to be worthy of your own salvation? I think not.

And if that's the case, then why would it have been necessary for God to have humans brutally crucify his only begotten son for your sake? Humans could just take responsibility for their own salvation.

Why call the TRUTH that I speak of as "Venting on Christianity"?

Show me that I'm wrong.

No, I will not show you where you are wrong on this thread, because it does not speak to "wishful thinking", but argues against Christianity being a philosophy of "wishful thinking". I quoted this section in it's entirety so that could be cleary seen. Do you therefore, disagree with those who make the argument that Christianity is "mere wishful thinking"?

[Divine Insight]

Why call the TRUTH that I speak of as "Venting on Christianity"?

Show me that I'm wrong.

No, I will not show you where you are wrong on this thread, because it does not speak to "wishful thinking", but argues against Christianity being a philosophy of "wishful thinking". I quoted this section in it's entirety so that could be cleary seen. Do you therefore, disagree with those who make the argument that Christianity is "mere wishful thinking"?

How can you say that my concerns do not speak to "wishful thinking"?

I've specifically asked why anyone would "wish" to be in such a negative situation.

And then I've pointed out precisely why Christianity is necessarily a negative situation.

Christianity has everyone in "dire need of salvation".

How is being in that situation anything positive that anyone would "wish for"?

That's my question?

In fact, this is one of the reasons I was attracted to this topic. Christian evangelists often suggest that we ignore any technical problems with the theology and all the theological details and just "Believe it on faith".

And this is precisely the same as asking us to believe in this religion because we "wish it to be true".

In other words, why should I believe "on faith" (i.e. wishful thinking) that I'm in the doghouse with a God and that my only hope to be "saved" is to have this God have humans crucify his only begotten Son to offer me undeserved salvation or grace.

It doesn't make much difference whether we call this "faith" or "wishful thinking", in either case my question is, why would we want to place our "faith" in this idea, or "wish" that it were true?

Why would we want to put such a dismal predicament on our wish list?

I think that's a very fair question when we're talking about whether or not "wishful thinking" makes any sense.

In your OP you say:

Another thread argues that theism is not wishful thinking. So, what is wrong with wishful thinking? Wishful thinking has been the drive behind most, if not all, modern innovation and, according to Jordon Peterson, it is necessary for proper mental health.

Why would you suggest that it would be "proper mental health" to wish that we are in a dire situation of needing to be granted undeserved salvation and that our creator had to have his only begotten son brutally crucified by humans to make our undeserved salvation possible?

Please explain how this is a "mentally healthy" idea?

It seems to me that this idea would cause people to think very little of themselves and to even have unhealthy guilt complexes and self-esteem problems.

Who could feel good about themselves after being told that their creator had to have his only begotten son brutally crucified because they are such an unfit evil person undeserving of their own self-respect?

I think these questions are absolutely paramount to the question of whether we should place our "faith" or "wishful thinking" in a specific religious theology.

Especially if the people who place their faith or wishful thinking in it are going to claim that this is "mentally healthy"

If you're going to make that claim, then you need to explain why it's mentally healthy to have people believing that they are without moral merit of their own.

How is that "mentally healthy"?

[Jagella]

As does every other philosophy, which reaches beyond what is, toward what could be, based on premises with which one might disagree. Many is the discovery and innovation that has been deemed "mere wishful thinking" in it's time.

Science has made many discoveries and innovations. Name one discovery or innovation that Christianity has granted us.