Wishful thinking

[bluethread]

Another thread argues that theism is not wishful thinking. So, what is wrong with wishful thinking? Wishful thinking has been the drive behind most, if not all, modern innovation and, according to Jordon Peterson, it is necessary for proper mental health.

[Inigo Montoya]

When has wishful thinking ever produced the discovery of a conscious and invisible agent?

[William]

[Replying to post 1 by bluethread]

Wishful thinking isn't good if it is detrimental. For example, I do not think that having faith in Jesus returning or focusing upon going to heaven or getting new bodies after the world has been purged of 'undesirables' is good when millions of people believe these things are going to happen and so do nothing to help fix the immediate problems of the world.

It is detrimental and has a foundation built upon the idea that those people in powerful positions cannot be removed unless some superhuman army from another dimension comes and does it. This takes the onus off people who wish for this to happen to have to figure out how this can be done without supernatural intervention, and in that, those people would have to change their attitudes...attitudes which currently allow for the continued abuse of people from those in powerful manipulative positions.

[Bust Nak]

[Replying to post 1 by bluethread]

Wishful thinking defined by wiki as is "the formation of beliefs and making decisions according to what might be pleasing to imagine instead of by appealing to evidence, rationality, or reality."

That is illogical and is hence wrong in the counter-productive sense. I disapprove of wishful thinking and it is hence wrong in the moral sense too.

One does not need wishful thinking for any innovation nor mental health. Instead one needs positive thinking or optimism.

[marco]

Another thread argues that theism is not wishful thinking. So, what is wrong with wishful thinking? Wishful thinking has been the drive behind most, if not all, modern innovation and, according to Jordon Peterson, it is necessary for proper mental health.

I haven't read the context in which Paterson was speaking but he seems to be misusing the term: "wishful thinking" and applying to it a positive meaning that it doesn't normally possess. In wishful thinking we erroneously assume something to be the case, when it is not. There is of course imaginative thinking, which has been at the base of most human progress.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

Another thread argues that theism is not wishful thinking. So, what is wrong with wishful thinking? Wishful thinking has been the drive behind most, if not all, modern innovation and, according to Jordon Peterson, it is necessary for proper mental health.

Wishful thinking and make believe go hand in hand. Wishful thinking is when you plan out in your mind the grand house you will build for yourself when you finally become filthy rich. Is that harmful? No, I suppose not. Unless you start writing checks your bank account cannot cover.

The point is, that wishful thinking can become harmful, if it one begins basing their life decisions and actions on make believe.

[Divine Insight]

Another thread argues that theism is not wishful thinking. So, what is wrong with wishful thinking? Wishful thinking has been the drive behind most, if not all, modern innovation and, according to Jordon Peterson, it is necessary for proper mental health.

I haven't read the context in which Paterson was speaking but he seems to be misusing the term: "wishful thinking" and applying to it a positive meaning that it doesn't normally possess. In wishful thinking we erroneously assume something to be the case, when it is not. There is of course imaginative thinking, which has been at the base of most human progress.

I totally agree with this. Jordon Peterson is confusing creative imagination with "wishful thinking". They are in no way the same thing.

I do believe that Peterson himself exposes this confusion between the two by suggesting that scientists who have come up with creative imagined ideas were simply exercising "wishful thinking". But these are not the same thing.

It may be true that the scientist might "wish" that their creative ideas turn out to be true. But that still doesn't make their original creative ideas based on "wishful thinking".

I think a perfect example is Einstein's Special Relativity. Einstein most likely did wish that his creative ideas would turn out to be true. But it's unlikely that Einstein was actually "wishfully thinking" that time would turn out to relative instead of absolute.

Although, in Einstein's case, he was so certain of the logical soundness of his creative ideas that he was sure they would turn out to be true. So Einstein didn't really need to even wish that they would turn out to be true. He was sure of it. Not only this but even his "Creative imagination" wasn't purely guesswork, He actually reasoned everything through using rigorous logic. So while he was creative in which ideas to pursue, he still relied on logic and reason, and not on mere "wishful thinking".

Jordon Peterson actually makes a lot of demonstrably logically flawed arguments in many of his talks. I'm really surprised that people bother to give him intellectual respect when he clearly has not earned it. His position on many things is easily refuted.

[bluethread]

Why call the TRUTH that I speak of as "Venting on Christianity"?

Show me that I'm wrong.

No, I will not show you where you are wrong on this thread, because it does not speak to "wishful thinking", but argues against Christianity being a philosophy of "wishful thinking". I quoted this section in it's entirety so that could be cleary seen. Do you therefore, disagree with those who make the argument that Christianity is "mere wishful thinking"?

How can you say that my concerns do not speak to "wishful thinking"?

I've specifically asked why anyone would "wish" to be in such a negative situation.

And then I've pointed out precisely why Christianity is necessarily a negative situation.

Christianity has everyone in "dire need of salvation".

How is being in that situation anything positive that anyone would "wish for"?

That's my question?

So. it appears that you are saying that Christianity is not based on wishful thinking. Is that what you are saying?

In your OP you say:

Another thread argues that theism is not wishful thinking. So, what is wrong with wishful thinking? Wishful thinking has been the drive behind most, if not all, modern innovation and, according to Jordon Peterson, it is necessary for proper mental health.

Why would you suggest that it would be "proper mental health" to wish that we are in a dire situation of needing to be granted undeserved salvation and that our creator had to have his only begotten son brutally crucified by humans to make our undeserved salvation possible?

Please explain how this is a "mentally healthy" idea?

As your quote shows, I suggested no such thing. I merely said that wishful thinking is a healthy thing according to Jordan Peterson. If that is the case, why is it necessary for a theist to argue that theism is not wishful thinking? Why should theists not embrace the accusation that theism is a form of wishful thinking?

Who could feel good about themselves after being told that their creator had to have his only begotten son brutally crucified because they are such an unfit evil person undeserving of their own self-respect?

I think these questions are absolutely paramount to the question of whether we should place our "faith" or "wishful thinking" in a specific religious theology.

Especially if the people who place their faith or wishful thinking in it are going to claim that this is "mentally healthy"

If you're going to make that claim, then you need to explain why it's mentally healthy to have people believing that they are without moral merit of their own.

How is that "mentally healthy"?

I am not making that claim. I am asking why theists feel obligated to refute the charge of theism being "wishful thinking". It appears to me that you agree with them that theism is not wishful thinking. In that case, maybe you should be challenging those who find fault with theism for being wishful thinking.

[Divine Insight]

So. it appears that you are saying that Christianity is not based on wishful thinking. Is that what you are saying?

Many Christian apologists argue that it's not based on wishful thinking. They argue that there is so much evidence that they really have no choice but to accept that it must be true.

I can actually understand someone believing in Christianity because they have been convinced that they have no choice but to accept it. What else can you do when you've been taught that you are "without excuse" for not believing it, and you have accepted this to be true?

What I am saying is that I can't understand why anyone would actually want to believe it is true purely because they wish it were true. It would seem to me that they aren't paying attention to what they are wishing for.

Why would anyone wish that they are to be held to be guilty for their creator having to have his only begotten Son brutally crucified to pay for their unworthiness of God?

I just can't understand why anyone would "wish" for that to be true.

In your OP you say:

Another thread argues that theism is not wishful thinking. So, what is wrong with wishful thinking? Wishful thinking has been the drive behind most, if not all, modern innovation and, according to Jordon Peterson, it is necessary for proper mental health.

Why would you suggest that it would be "proper mental health" to wish that we are in a dire situation of needing to be granted undeserved salvation and that our creator had to have his only begotten son brutally crucified by humans to make our undeserved salvation possible?

Please explain how this is a "mentally healthy" idea?

As your quote shows, I suggested no such thing. I merely said that wishful thinking is a healthy thing according to Jordan Peterson. If that is the case, why is it necessary for a theist to argue that theism is not wishful thinking? Why should theists not embrace the accusation that theism is a form of wishful thinking?

Well, for one thing Jordan Peterson isn't God. Just because Jordan Peterson says that wishful thinking is mentally healthy doesn't' make it so.

In fact, others have already pointed out what should be obvious to everyone. Wishful thinking can actually be quite detrimental depending on what a person wishes for. Thus Jordan Peterson has been clearly shown to be wrong in his claim that wishful thinking is mentally healthy.

But getting back to Christianity, I do believe that Christian should openly confess that the only reason they have to believe in Christianity is because they wish that it is true. After all it is supposed to be a faith-based religion.

But then my original question comes back into play. Why place our faith (or wish) that we are in the doghouse with our creator and there is absolutely nothing we can do about it on our own merit. All we can do is confess that God did the right thing in offering his Son up as our scapegoat because we aren't worthy of our own salvation.

I just can't see why anyone would "wish" to be in such a hopeless predicament.

If you have been taught that you have no choice in the matter, then I can understand why you would feel that you need to accept this horrible predicament. But to actually wish it on yourself simply makes no sense to me.

Who could feel good about themselves after being told that their creator had to have his only begotten son brutally crucified because they are such an unfit evil person undeserving of their own self-respect?

I think these questions are absolutely paramount to the question of whether we should place our "faith" or "wishful thinking" in a specific religious theology.

Especially if the people who place their faith or wishful thinking in it are going to claim that this is "mentally healthy"

If you're going to make that claim, then you need to explain why it's mentally healthy to have people believing that they are without moral merit of their own.

How is that "mentally healthy"?

I am not making that claim. I am asking why theists feel obligated to refute the charge of theism being "wishful thinking". It appears to me that you agree with them that theism is not wishful thinking. In that case, maybe you should be challenging those who find fault with theism for being wishful thinking.

I certainly agree that it would make no sense to "wish" that Christianity is true.

And I sympathize with those who feel they have no choice but to believe it. Clearly they would be stuck with having to believe it whether they like being in this predicament or not.

I mean, after all, if Christianity could be proven beyond any reasonable doubt to be true, then we'd all be stuck in a horrible situation.

I might add also, that if Christianity were true I would ask this God to "kill me". I have no desire to be granted undeserved amnesty because God's Son was brutally crucified on a pole. I want no parts of that. So I would reject the offer of everlasting life with this God anyway and ask this God to simply "kill me".

I would ask that he does this in a painless way with polite respect and not get all bent out of shape about it an angry unleashing his terrible wrath on me.

After all, if he's truly a benevolent loving God why not just accept that I'm not interested in his drama play and I choose a peaceful and respectful "death" (not condemned to some undeserved eternal torture). That would not be the act of a decent benevolent God. Just make me cease to exist. Period. Lights out, and I no longer exist.

That would be my "wish" if this religion were indeed true. I wouldn't want to have anything to do with this creator God based on what he's done in the Bible, including having humans brutally crucify his only begotten Son.

I would want no parts of that. Like Patrick Henry once said, "Give me liberty or give me death". Living for eternity under the dictatorship of a God who is so ignorant to have created humans in predicament where their only hope for eternal life is to confess that they are to be held responsible for the crucifixion of his Son for the rest of eternity is not a life I would "wish" for.

So if Christianity is true, then I wish for death. I want no parts of this God's offer of eternal life living under his ignorant dictatorship and forced eternal guilt trip.

So yes, I have far more respect for people who confess that they have no choice but to believe in this religion. And I haven't a clue why anyone would actually wish for it to be true or want to believe it as a matter of "faith".

[bluethread]

In the case of Christianity, we have mere wishful thinking. In other words, Christian belief is really nothing more than wishful thinking. Of course, Christian apologetics tries to convince us otherwise.

If "mere" is implied, then it is understandable that a philosophy would argue against that. However, would you agree that wishful thinking is not necessarily bad as long as it is not "mere" wishful thinking.

Science has made many discoveries and innovations. Name one discovery or innovation that Christianity has granted us.

Well, along with other theistic philosophies, it gave us due process, presumption of innocence, constitutional government, among other values based innovations. Science has not made discoveries and innovations. It has confirmed discoveries and innovations that were hypothesized by various philosophies.

Wiiliam

Wishful thinking isn't good if it is detrimental.

As is the case with all things. That does not mean that one should reject wishful thinking outright.

TotN

Wishful thinking and make believe go hand in hand. Wishful thinking is when you plan out in your mind the grand house you will build for yourself when you finally become filthy rich. Is that harmful? No, I suppose not. Unless you start writing checks your bank account cannot cover.

The point is, that wishful thinking can become harmful, if it one begins basing their life decisions and actions on make believe.

That is how you choose to frame it. However, you then make my case, only to turn pessimistic. Just because something can be harmful, does not mean that it should be characterized as harmful in general. The point is that if one does not plan out the grand house, one never builds the grand house, or even any house for that matter.

[bluethread]

I haven't read the context in which Paterson was speaking but he seems to be misusing the term: "wishful thinking" and applying to it a positive meaning that it doesn't normally possess. In wishful thinking we erroneously assume something to be the case, when it is not. There is of course imaginative thinking, which has been at the base of most human progress.

This post seems to be stated more clearly than the rest. It appears that you are claiming the "wishful thinking" is more of a pejorative than a descriptive. The problem with that is that a pejorative does not deserve a serious response. So, the only rational response is to presume it a descriptive and proceed from there.

That said, what Peterson is talking about is not imaginative wanderings, but directed activity. A general wish is indeed of little use. However, when a wish focus the mind on a specific point. one is able to make progress in that direction. It is not that what one wishes for must not change, but that one have a desire to some end.