Did Jesus Crucify?

Talmid · Post by **Talmid** » Mon Sep 24, 2018 3:25 am

Jesus was not crucified according to some early Christian writings.

The Second Treatise of the Great Seth [190-230 A.D.]

For my death, which they think happened, happened to them in their error and blindness, since they nailed their man unto their death. Their thoughts did not see me, for they were deaf and blind. But in doing these things, they condemn themselves. Yes, they saw me; they punished me. It was another, their father, who drank the gall and the vinegar; it was not I. They struck me with the reed; it was another, Simon, who bore the cross on his shoulder. It was another upon whom they placed the crown of thorns.

Coptic Apocalypse of Peter [200-255 A.D.]

The Savior said to me, "He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put to shame, the one who came into being in his likeness. But look at him and me."

bjs · Post by **bjs** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:10 am

[Replying to Talmid]

The Gospel of Basilides is probably the earliest Gnostic work we know of, and the only way we know that it was written in the second century is that at the time of its writing it was universally decried as a work of fiction. All the writings that came before the Gospel of Basilides and all the contemporary writings of the Gospel of Basilides agree that Jesus was crucified.

Concerning the canonical Gospels: They are anonymous, but that is not the same thing has us not knowing who wrote them.

The Wikipedia statement that none of them were written by eyewitnesses wildly overstates the case. It would more accurate to say that we cannot be sure that any of them were written by eyewitnesses. However it is plausible, and even likely, that the fourth Gospel was written by an eyewitness.

The earliest existing manuscripts of the canonical Gospels date from 125 AD or later. By comparison, the earliest existing manuscript of the Gospel of Basilides wasnt written until around 250 years after Jesus.

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 8:18 am

Talmid wrote: [Replying to post 9 by Wootah]

I just quoted contradictory statements of Gospels which you believed as Gods word.

Do you think Jesus is racist?

Talmid · Post by **Talmid** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:36 pm

[Replying to post 12 by Wootah]

I firmly believe that Jesus Christ was God's prophet but he was NOT son of God nor God himself.

rikuoamero · Post by **rikuoamero** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:47 pm

Wootah wrote: You can safely ignore gnostic writings. They occurred long after the events and were not written or intended as true accounts. They are more or less fan fiction from that time.

You can learn more here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/greatseth.html

One of the rare times I have to agree with Wootah. These are writings from one or two centuries after the event they claim to be talking about, so standard historical methodology is to go with what writings are closer.
Although there are questions as to why these writings exist.

rikuoamero · Post by **rikuoamero** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:51 pm

Wootah wrote: [Replying to post 6 by Talmid]

Given what we know about Jesus's character do you think He would stand around laughing after swapping Simon in his place? It seems evil to me and so unlikely to be Jesus.

This question is essentially asking "Does the character of Jesus in the New Testament gospels match the character of Jesus in the Gospel of Basilides?"
The way you word your question, "Given what we know about Jesus's character", it's like you're saying what you believe Jesus's character to be, to be the default Jesus, the one for everyone, versus what this Basilides person says.
What do we know about the character of Jesus? Well...the Gospels have him kicking people out of a temple, throwing tables around and whipping them. Such a person might just laugh at another person carrying their cross.
You seem to have an image in your head of Gentle Jesus, Meek and Mild...but is such a thing to be found within your source material?

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Wed Sep 26, 2018 5:00 pm

Talmid wrote: [Replying to post 12 by Wootah]

I firmly believe that Jesus Christ was God's prophet but he was NOT son of God nor God himself.

OK so what makes you believe Basildes over the Gospels?

Do you think the gospels claim that Jesus is God?

Talmid · Post by **Talmid** » Sat Sep 29, 2018 10:10 am

[Replying to post 16 by Wootah]

What make you believe that Jesus really died for your sins?

About Jesus Crucifixion, see the links:

http://www.answering-christianity.com/a ... hoax_1.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/a ... hoax_2.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/a ... hoax_3.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/a ... hoax_4.htm

http://www.answering-christianity.com/a ... hoax_5.htm

bjs · Post by **bjs** » Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:49 pm

[Replying to post 17 by Talmid]

Please avoid limiting your posts to lengthy links. This is not me speaking as a moderator. I am just giving advice for a debate. If you cant summarize your point clearly in your own words then I, personally, wont bother with your links. I am not going to debate a different website. Links are useful for evidence, but you need to be able to make your own point in your own words in your own post.

Talmid · Post by **Talmid** » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:31 am

[Replying to post 18 by bjs]

Given links has detailed information from different sources. If you cant bother to read, its your will. I think any sensible person will go through them.

Anyway, I would further add that;

Christians claim that the blood sacrificial system is mans only hope for atonement & there can be no forgiveness of sin without the shedding of blood. In support of their claim that atonement can only be achieved through the shedding of blood, they quote the following verse:

Leviticus 17:11
For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for ones life.

BUT, Christians must use all of the verse, not just a part of it. Leviticus 17:11 specifically says that the blood of the sacrifice must be placed on the altar. That is to say, Leviticus 17:11 clearly declare that blood can only effect atonement if it is placed on the altar. Jesus blood, however, was never placed on the altar. If the Christians are going to take the blood part of the verse literally, they must also take the altar part literally as well. Jesus blood was never sprinkled on the altar, and therefore his death could not provide atonement for anyone.

Christianity continues to preach same idea about atonement as ancient pagan religions promoted in past.

If Jesus would be really crucified, there would be No disagreement and confusion among early Christian sects [Ebionites, Basilideans, etc.] about him.