From Zumdahl Chemistry Sixth edition
Gibbs free energy equation in Chemistry indicates whether a chemical reaction will occur spontaneously or not. It is derived out of the second law of thermodynamics and takes the form.
dG = dH - TdS
dG = the change in Gibbs free energy
dH = the change in enthalpy the flow of energy reaction.
T = Temperature
dS = Change in entropy Sfinal state - Sinitial state
For evolution to occur the dS is always going to be negative because the
final state will always have a lower entropy then the initial state.
dH of a dipeptide from amino acids = 5-8 kcal/mole ,(Hutchens, Handbook
of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology.
dh for a macromolecule in a living system = 16.4 cal/gm (Morowitz,
Energy flow in Biology.
Zumdauhl Chemistry sixth edition
When dS is negative and dH is positive the Process is not spontaneous at
any temperature. The reverse process is spontaneous at all temperatures.
The implications are that evolution could not have happen now or in the past. genes could not have been added to the cytoplasm of the cell along with producing any gene's in the first.
Production of information or complexity by any chemical process using a polymer of amino acids is impossible according to the second law of thermodynamics. If any proteins were formed by chance they would immediately break apart.
Evolution Cannot Happen.
Evolution RIP
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Post #31
Evolution not only doesn't violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics, but it actually depends upon it. Without the law of entropy evolution would not even be possible.DrNoGods wrote: Evolution has been observed, it is happening now, and it does not violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics
People always mistake entropy as saying that a system can only move toward a state of disorder. But that's totally false. Entropy only states that this will be the case for a closed system overall. When systems are not closed (or even within various areas of a closed system) this same law of thermodynamics is actually what allows complex systems to form.
The Earth/Sun system allows for entropy to decrease on the Earth, precisely because entropy is increasing in the Sun.
Exactly. This thread has been nothing more than an exhibition of extreme ignorance of science and reality.DrNoGods wrote: So far you've offered absolutely nothing to dispute these facts ... just continued hand waving and misapplication of equations and statistics to dig your hole even deeper.
And all for what? To renounce natural evolution in favor of a TIMITS who's baby-sitting and manually manipulating every biological molecule in the world?
As I've said, if this were the case we should be able to catch TIMITS in the act of manipulating these molecules. It's a testable hypothesis.
Have you caught TIMITS in the act EarthScienceguy?
If so, you need to report your experiment so all the other scientists can marvel at TIMITS manipulating molecules in violation of the laws of physics.
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Re: Tsrot
Post #32[Replying to ATN]
Mutations creating more information in the genome.
Mutations do not add information to the genome. Mutations subtract information from the genome.
Mutations do not enhance the biological system making giving them more options to adapt in new ways. Mutations make the biological system less able to adapt than was previously possible.
The second law of thermodynamics gives the reason why this is true.
Mutations are nothing more than chemical reactions. For a reaction to occur there must be reason for the direction of the reaction.
If the reaction is in the direction of increased ability to adapt then there must be a driving force for the reaction to take place.
Gibbs free energy equation indicates that an increased in the information of the genome is impossible.
That's the short version.
Mutations creating more information in the genome.
Mutations do not add information to the genome. Mutations subtract information from the genome.
Mutations do not enhance the biological system making giving them more options to adapt in new ways. Mutations make the biological system less able to adapt than was previously possible.
The second law of thermodynamics gives the reason why this is true.
Mutations are nothing more than chemical reactions. For a reaction to occur there must be reason for the direction of the reaction.
If the reaction is in the direction of increased ability to adapt then there must be a driving force for the reaction to take place.
Gibbs free energy equation indicates that an increased in the information of the genome is impossible.
That's the short version.
Re: Tsrot
Post #33[Replying to post 32 by EarthScienceguy]
You are mistaken actually. How I understand it mutations are copy mistakes, after different sections of DNA there is an sequence that mark the start and end of the section. If a copy is making a mistake in the ending of an end sequence, it duplicate the whole section, creating a whole lot longer section, ofen left "sleeping". The duplicate is free to change and mutate untill another copy mistake activate changed section or laps it to another active section. This is how a way DNA grow, or you can say "information is added".
Evolution don't seem to need directions or any other purpose than duplicating (making outsourcings)
You are mistaken actually. How I understand it mutations are copy mistakes, after different sections of DNA there is an sequence that mark the start and end of the section. If a copy is making a mistake in the ending of an end sequence, it duplicate the whole section, creating a whole lot longer section, ofen left "sleeping". The duplicate is free to change and mutate untill another copy mistake activate changed section or laps it to another active section. This is how a way DNA grow, or you can say "information is added".
Evolution don't seem to need directions or any other purpose than duplicating (making outsourcings)
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Post #34
[Replying to post 31 by Divine Insight]
Correct ... this is exactly what I (not Goat) have been repeatedly telling ESG since he started this argument in another thread ("Does man have a soul" where it first came up).
But I don't think he's interested in learning the difference between open and closed thermodynamic systems, or what Gibbs free energy is and when it applies, or how to use probabilities and statistics, etc. He has convinced himself that evolution is a false theory, and is attempting to support this by delving into a subject he does not understand well enough to craft a sensible argument (and as a result is making one mistake after another, moving the goal posts, etc.).
People always mistake entropy as saying that a system can only move toward a state of disorder. But that's totally false. Entropy only states that this will be the case for a closed system overall. When systems are not closed (or even within various areas of a closed system) this same law of thermodynamics is actually what allows complex systems to form.
The Earth/Sun system allows for entropy to decrease on the Earth, precisely because entropy is increasing in the Sun.
Correct ... this is exactly what I (not Goat) have been repeatedly telling ESG since he started this argument in another thread ("Does man have a soul" where it first came up).
But I don't think he's interested in learning the difference between open and closed thermodynamic systems, or what Gibbs free energy is and when it applies, or how to use probabilities and statistics, etc. He has convinced himself that evolution is a false theory, and is attempting to support this by delving into a subject he does not understand well enough to craft a sensible argument (and as a result is making one mistake after another, moving the goal posts, etc.).
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Post #35
[Replying to post 29 by DrNoGods]
Ahmed M El-Shehawi1,2* and Mona M Elseehy2
1Department of Biotechnology, Taif University, Taif, Saudi Arabia
2Department of Genetics, University of Alexandria, Alexandria, Egypt
https://www.omicsonline.org/open-access ... ?aid=89529
Have a great weekend!!
Genome Size and Chromosome Number Relationship Contradicts the Principle of Darwinian Evolution from Common AncestorEvolution has been observed, it is happening now, and it does not violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics. So far you've offered absolutely nothing to dispute these facts ... just continued hand waving and misapplication of equations and statistics to dig your hole even deeper.
Ahmed M El-Shehawi1,2* and Mona M Elseehy2
1Department of Biotechnology, Taif University, Taif, Saudi Arabia
2Department of Genetics, University of Alexandria, Alexandria, Egypt
These various types of interrelationships indicate the lack of evolutionary trend between genome size estimates and chromosome number. The human genome was located at 4/6 away from the controversial common ancestor genome and 2/6 away from the largest detected genome. Results of this study contradict the principle of Darwinian evolution from common ancestor and support the independent appearance of living organisms on earth. This will open the door for new explanations for the existence of living organisms on earth based on genome size.
https://www.omicsonline.org/open-access ... ?aid=89529
Have a great weekend!!
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Re: Tsrot
Post #36[Replying to post 32 by EarthScienceguy]
And it is all wrong. Literally everything you said in that post (32) was incorrect.That's the short version.
And how is this relevant to the discussion? They are not claiming that evolution is false, or that it vioiates the 2nd law of thermodynamics. They are only claiming that a common ancestor is not possible (and I haven't taken any time to read the paper or any responses to it that may argue against that specfiic claim), but they are not questioning evolution itself which is what you have been doing. This paper is irrelevant to the discussion.Genome Size and Chromosome Number Relationship Contradicts the Principle of Darwinian Evolution from Common Ancestor
Ahmed M El-Shehawi1,2* and Mona M Elseehy2
1Department of Biotechnology, Taif University, Taif, Saudi Arabia
In human affairs the sources of success are ever to be found in the fountains of quick resolve and swift stroke; and it seems to be a law, inflexible and inexorable, that he who will not risk cannot win.
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Post #37
Sorry about that. I don't know why I called you Goat. Dementia must be setting in here.DrNoGods wrote: Correct ... this is exactly what I (not Goat) have been repeatedly telling ESG since he started this argument in another thread ("Does man have a soul" where it first came up).
As far as ESG is concerned, you've already shown beyond any reasonable doubt that ESG has no clue what he's talking about when it comes to science and chemistry. Nothing more needs to be said at this point.
Theists are hitting an all-time rock bottom when they need to start making totally false claims about science in an effort to try to loan support to an obviously failed theology.
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Post #38
[Replying to post 37 by Divine Insight]
True ... I should stop responding to such blatant and egregious errors and misinterpretations, even when they are so easily shown to be wrong, and corrected. But it is pretty clear now that ESG has no real interest in getting the chemistry correct and only wants to push his anti-evolution viewpoint.
The problem with his approach is that the chemistry relationships and principles he's trying to use are not so ambiguous that they can be twisted to mean something they don't, and without the ability to do that the argument in the OP fails.
Nothing more needs to be said at this point.
True ... I should stop responding to such blatant and egregious errors and misinterpretations, even when they are so easily shown to be wrong, and corrected. But it is pretty clear now that ESG has no real interest in getting the chemistry correct and only wants to push his anti-evolution viewpoint.
The problem with his approach is that the chemistry relationships and principles he's trying to use are not so ambiguous that they can be twisted to mean something they don't, and without the ability to do that the argument in the OP fails.
In human affairs the sources of success are ever to be found in the fountains of quick resolve and swift stroke; and it seems to be a law, inflexible and inexorable, that he who will not risk cannot win.
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The man who does not read has no advantage over the man who cannot read.
Mark Twain
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Re: Tsrot
Post #39Why , that has nothing to do with the inaccurate replication of DNA at all. You are making claims you are not supporting.EarthScienceguy wrote: [Replying to post 5 by ATN]
That is not the problem. The problem is creating new genes for an upward organizational movement of a species.
Creating new genes requires an increase in the complexity of the arrangement of the amino acids. The Gibbs free energy equation indicates that increase in complexity cannot happen spontaneously. And even it did it would move back to the original state spontaneously. Therefore making evolution impossible.
And this is exactly what we see in nature.
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Post #40
Gene duplication leads to redundancy.
Redundancy leads to the masking of function-loss in either of the gene copies.
Variation leads to synergistic neo-functionalization between the two genes.
This is observed.
Whole genome duplication has been observed. When this occurs, there is effectively a "blank canvas" of redundant genes that can be modified by selective pressures via mutation.
We observe that chromosome numbers are not wholly immutable. Human chromosome pair #2 is a fusion event of two primate chromosomes from our common ancestor with chimps and other great apes.
By deactivating 3 key genes in chicken embryos, we can turn off the suppressants of ancestral genes, leading the embryo to produce raptor-like teeth (which were inherited down the ancestral line since theropod dinosaurs).
Redundancy leads to the masking of function-loss in either of the gene copies.
Variation leads to synergistic neo-functionalization between the two genes.
This is observed.
Whole genome duplication has been observed. When this occurs, there is effectively a "blank canvas" of redundant genes that can be modified by selective pressures via mutation.
We observe that chromosome numbers are not wholly immutable. Human chromosome pair #2 is a fusion event of two primate chromosomes from our common ancestor with chimps and other great apes.
By deactivating 3 key genes in chicken embryos, we can turn off the suppressants of ancestral genes, leading the embryo to produce raptor-like teeth (which were inherited down the ancestral line since theropod dinosaurs).
