What type of design is this?

OnceConvinced · Post by **OnceConvinced** » Sun Oct 14, 2018 7:38 pm

Presuming God is real and presuming demons and Satan is real...

Presuming God created them as angels and then the ones that rebelled became the demons, let by Satan himself. These fallen angels became so corrupt that they became completely evil, with no redeeming features at all.

So God created these beings and for whatever reason they became pure evil. Yet God, even if he didn't know for sure, had a good idea they would become that way. Yet he created them anyway, knowing they would be come corrupted and turn against him.

Or maybe he had no idea at all? Maybe their corruption was a complete surprise to him?

The thing is for them to become corrupt, they must have been designed in such a way that would allow them to become corrupt.

So....
What sort of design would this be?

Malevolent?
Incompetent?
Intelligent?

Please justify your answer.

Post by **Tcg** » Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:18 pm

1213 wrote:
Tcg wrote: â€¦
Malachi 1:3 "but I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation and appointed his inheritance for the jackals of the wilderness.â€�
â€¦.
In Biblical point of view, hate doesnâ€™t seem to be the opposite of love.

Let's see... What did I predict in the very same post you quoted only partially from?

"Of course what will follow will be an explanation of how the word "hate" doesn't mean hate."

I called that one!

bjs · Post by **bjs** » Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:43 pm

[Replying to post 26 by OnceConvinced]

Hand waving an argument away does not somehow invalidate it. God created beings with moral freedom. That by nature includes the risk of corruption. However, moral freedom is neither malevolent nor incompetent. You have ignored a fundamental problem with your reasoning.

jgh7 · Post by **jgh7** » Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:01 pm

rikuoamero wrote: [Replying to post 1 by OnceConvinced]

Given what you say in the OP...I vote Incompetent. I obviously cannot vote Intelligent so I won't even comment on that, but my reason for not voting Malevolent is that you did not indicate in the OP that this God blames his creations for being what they are, assigns punishments, curses to them, expects his creations to repent for being what they are, what they were created to be.

God created us with the capability for good and evil. Is it evil to pass judgment on those who choose to be evil? We humans don't feel guilty when we sentence people to jail for heinous crimes. Is it evil to want people to repent from their evil ways?

By your logic of what makes God malevolent, for God to be good He should not care whether we are good or evil, should not punish evil, by the same token should not reward good, and should not want us to repent of our evil ways. In other words, for God to be good instead of malevolent He should not care about us at all.

brunumb · Post by **brunumb** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:30 am

[Replying to post 33 by jgh7]

God created us with the capability for good and evil.

Why evil? He didn't create us with the capacity to fly. Is that a loss?

Is it evil to pass judgment on those who choose to be evil? We humans don't feel guilty when we sentence people to jail for heinous crimes. Is it evil to want people to repent from their evil ways?

Why the emphasis on heinous crimes? We sentence people to jail for varying lengths of time. The sentence is usually a reflection of the nature of the crime. The death sentence is used sparingly and in many states is no longer applied. We offer rehabilitation, parole and early release. Sometimes we do feel guilty when we sentence people to jail.

With God, there is one sentence for all crimes. Eternity in hell. That crime can be as insignificant as simply not having a personal belief in this particular deity and his alleged activities on earth. Now that is truly evil at work.

Goat · Post by **Goat** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:00 am

jgh7 wrote:
rikuoamero wrote: [Replying to post 1 by OnceConvinced]

Given what you say in the OP...I vote Incompetent. I obviously cannot vote Intelligent so I won't even comment on that, but my reason for not voting Malevolent is that you did not indicate in the OP that this God blames his creations for being what they are, assigns punishments, curses to them, expects his creations to repent for being what they are, what they were created to be.
God created us with the capability for good and evil. Is it evil to pass judgment on those who choose to be evil? We humans don't feel guilty when we sentence people to jail for heinous crimes. Is it evil to want people to repent from their evil ways?

By your logic of what makes God malevolent, for God to be good He should not care whether we are good or evil, should not punish evil, by the same token should not reward good, and should not want us to repent of our evil ways. In other words, for God to be good instead of malevolent He should not care about us at all.

It seems to me when it talks about 'judge not least you be judged' is quite taken out of context. This is the full passage

For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: ... For with whatever judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with whatever measure you measure, it will be measured to you.

It means you will be examined with the same criteria that you use to examine others. It goes along with the theme of 'he who is without sin casts the first stone'...

1213 · Post by **1213** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:56 pm

Tcg wrote:
1213 wrote: In Biblical point of view, hate doesnâ€™t seem to be the opposite of love.
Let's see... What did I predict in the very same post you quoted only partially from?

"Of course what will follow will be an explanation of how the word "hate" doesn't mean hate."

If you speak about what the Bible tells, shouldnâ€™t you use its definition? If you donâ€™t do that, you have no chance to understand it, but perhaps you donâ€™t even want to understand?

In Bible love seems to mean person cares. Can you hate something that you donâ€™t care? I donâ€™t think so, therefore basically love is connected to hate.

Clownboat · Post by **Clownboat** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:11 pm

1213 wrote:Bad thing is that many people love more evil and lies than good and truth.

Another fascinating statement!
Can you name any of these many people that love evil and lies more than good and truth?

Just trying to make sure you are not just regurgitating church speak.
Much appreciated.

Post by **Tcg** » Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:22 pm

[Replying to post 36 by 1213]

I didn't speak about what the Bible tells. I quoted it. The quote I gave contradicts your claim no matter how you attempt to redefine hate.

Perhaps it is you who doesn't want to understand?

jgh7 · Post by **jgh7** » Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:02 am

brunumb wrote: [Replying to post 33 by jgh7]

God created us with the capability for good and evil.
Why evil? He didn't create us with the capacity to fly. Is that a loss?

I don't know why. It's beyond me to understand the complexities involved in designing from the ground up conscious beings. Why didn't He just make us 100% happy and good all of the time? Maybe give us free will but ensure that we always choose good. And let us fly for good measure sure. People can throw all the arguments they want about how God should have done better, but we're basically talking out of our asses since we have an infant's level of knowledge compared to God in creating life.

brunumb wrote:
jgh7 wrote:Is it evil to pass judgment on those who choose to be evil? We humans don't feel guilty when we sentence people to jail for heinous crimes. Is it evil to want people to repent from their evil ways?
Why the emphasis on heinous crimes? We sentence people to jail for varying lengths of time. The sentence is usually a reflection of the nature of the crime. The death sentence is used sparingly and in many states is no longer applied. We offer rehabilitation, parole and early release. Sometimes we do feel guilty when we sentence people to jail.

With God, there is one sentence for all crimes. Eternity in hell. That crime can be as insignificant as simply not having a personal belief in this particular deity and his alleged activities on earth. Now that is truly evil at work.

I said heinous crimes to keep things simple and straightforward. If one undoubtebly commits murder, or rape, or child molestation, or another heinous crime, then we punish them and hold them accountable for their actions. Rikuomero was objecting to God punishing us for who we are. So it seemed like a double standard to me since we punish people for who they are.

Your objection seems more specific. Do you object to God performing any sort of punishment at all, or do you object only because you disagree with the kind of punishment and the reasons for it? From riku's post, it seemed like he objected to God punishing in general.

As for the whole Hell debate, I personally don't believe in eternal torture, and my interpretation from scriptures is that Hell is a second death and thus nonexistence. In terms of the final judgment for Heaven and Hell, I believe that it's fair for God not to bring to Heaven those who don't care and/or choose not to know and follow Him. That is how I interpret the distinction between Heaven and Hell right now. But there are many arguments that can be made against my view and I doubt I have the knowledge or werewithal to debate all of them. It's simply my view.

brunumb · Post by **brunumb** » Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:14 am

[Replying to post 39 by jgh7]

Do you object to God performing any sort of punishment at all, or do you object only because you disagree with the kind of punishment?

You didn't really address what I said:

We sentence people to jail for varying lengths of time. The sentence is usually a reflection of the nature of the crime. The death sentence is used sparingly and in many states is no longer applied. We offer rehabilitation, parole and early release. Sometimes we do feel guilty when we sentence people to jail.
With God, there is one sentence for all crimes.

Are you happy with a one-size-fits-all punishment system? Why?

As for the whole Hell debate, I personally don't believe in eternal torture, and my interpretation from scriptures is that Hell is a second death and thus nonexistence.

(My added italics) Why should anyone care what you believe? This highlights one of the big problems with the alleged word of God. Everyone has their own version. Is it any wonder that some people don't believe any of it.

Debating Christianity and Religion