How can Christianity be about morality?

[Divine Insight]

According to Christianity you and I are both immoral sinners undeserving of salvation.

The only way we can be "saved" from damnation is to receive undeserved amnesty. And the only way to obtain this undeserved amnesty is to believe in the stories of Yahweh and Jesus.

According to Christianity (and especially the Gospel of Paul) there is absolutely nothing we can do to merit our own salvation. The only way to obtain it is to believe in the stories of Yahweh and Jesus.

So now what?

Neither you nor I can obtain salvation via any form of moral behavior. This would violate Christianity.

However, if you are willing to believe in the stories of Yahweh and Jesus (possibly even by simply not even questioning them at all), then you will be granted undeserved free amnesty and granted eternal life in paradise.

However, if I question the stories and find them to be utterly inconsistent, illogical, self-contradictory, and thus totally unbelievable, I will be damned to eternal damnation.

NOTE: The above criteria has absolutely NOTHING to do with a person's morality.

So just because you are willing to believe in these stories (even possibly without even questioning them) you WIN eternal life in heaven, even though you don't deserve it.

I, on the other hand, being precisely as undeserving as you, will be cast into hell simply because I found the stories to be utterly absurd and unbelievable.

This religion certainly has absolutely nothing at all to do with morality. That much should be crystal clear to everyone. And especially according to Paul. Paul forbids anyone to merit their own salvation lest they can "boast".

Ephesians 2:
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.

So according to Christianity (without rejecting the Gospel of Paul) how moral a person is cannot have anything at all to do with whether or not they are "saved".

Question for debate: How can Christianity be about morality?

I mean really. You're going to be rewarded with eternal life just for believing in something despite the fact that you may be an immoral person? In fact, according to Christianity you necessarily ARE and immoral person. There is no such thing in Christianity as a moral human other than Jesus himself.

~~~~~~

NOTE: You are more than welcome to reject the Gospel of Paul and claim that our morality does matter. However, I should warn you ahead of time that this approach opens up a whole new can of worms. Because once you start claiming that you can merit your own salvation this then places your entrance into heaven based on having EARNED it yourself. And that would leave Jesus hanging on a cross for no good reason. So that's extremely problematic. Paul was at least astute enough to recognize this. Our morality can't have anything at all to do with our salvation. So this religion cannot be about morality.

[1213]

…The only way we can be "saved" from damnation is to receive undeserved amnesty. And the only way to obtain this undeserved amnesty is to believe in the stories of Yahweh and Jesus. .

What do you think, what action could you do to undo your wrong doings, if you have done something bad? If there is none, then I think Bible is correct, any work is not useful. Only forgiveness can make a difference.

In the Bible wage of sin is death. If you have sin, you will die. But it is possible to have sin forgiven and so get salvation from the judgment and death. And by the rights Jesus gives to his disciples, I could forgive you sins now and you don’t have to believe anything. The problem is, if now, after this forgiveness, you continue in sin, the forgiveness is not useful. That is why Jesus taught people should repent. Forgiveness is not useful, if person continues in sin.

Whoever's sins you forgive, they are forgiven them. Whoever's sins you retain, they have been retained."
John 20:23

I tell you, no, but, unless you repent, you will all perish in the same way.
Luke 13:3

According to Christianity (and especially the Gospel of Paul) there is absolutely nothing we can do to merit our own salvation. The only way to obtain it is to believe in the stories of Yahweh and Jesus. .

Why complain, if it is freely offered for all people? You can have sins forgiven, without any work, so I think there shouldn’t be any reason to complain.

However, if you are willing to believe in the stories of Yahweh and Jesus (possibly even by simply not even questioning them at all), then you will be granted undeserved free amnesty and granted eternal life in paradise. .

Eternal life is promised for righteous people. It is much greater matter than just some belief. And actually, many who just believe, but are not righteous, will be disappointed.

Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Matt. 7:21

Even demons believe. It is not very helpful, if person is not righteous.

You believe that God is one. You do well. The demons also believe, and shudder.
James 2:19

However, if I question the stories and find them to be utterly inconsistent, illogical, self-contradictory, and thus totally unbelievable, I will be damned to eternal damnation. .

If you will be judged to die, it is because of unrighteousness. Righteousness is wisdom of the just, right understanding and attitude that makes you do what is good and right. Person who is righteous, speaks truth in his heart, I hope you do so.

…This religion certainly has absolutely nothing at all to do with morality….

I think your straw man religion has nothing to do with morality. I hope you some day understand what the Bible tells.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 11 by 1213]

What do you think, what action could you do to undo your wrong doings, if you have done something bad? If there is none, then I think Bible is correct, any work is not useful. Only forgiveness can make a difference.

First, tell DI (and myself) what our "wrong doings" exactly are? What are the charges?

In the Bible wage of sin is death. If you have sin, you will die.

I have done what Christianity would label sins both during and after I was a believer...and yet here I remain. Still alive.

But it is possible to have sin forgiven and so get salvation from the judgment and death. And by the rights Jesus gives to his disciples, I could forgive you sins now and you don’t have to believe anything.

You can forgive people and thus save them from death?
That's a tall claim. You know what I need. It's a word beginning with E.

The problem is, if now, after this forgiveness, you continue in sin, the forgiveness is not useful. That is why Jesus taught people should repent. Forgiveness is not useful, if person continues in sin.

Oh...so it's not as DI and I say? It's nothing to do with believing a specific Jew man got nailed to a pole 2,000 years ago, then got better?
Our behaviour DOES play a factor?

Why complain, if it is freely offered for all people? You can have sins forgiven, without any work, so I think there shouldn’t be any reason to complain.

DI and myself aren't complaining that we can have sins forgiven. We're talking about morality, and how apparently salvation in Christianity has little (or nothing) to do with our own actions. That it apparently fundamentally rests on whether or not we believe a Jew man got nailed to a pole, died and came back.

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 11 by 1213]

What do you think, what action could you do to undo your wrong doings, if you have done something bad? If there is none, then I think Bible is correct, any work is not useful. Only forgiveness can make a difference.

First, tell DI (and myself) what our "wrong doings" exactly are? What are the charges?

Exactly!

How dare someone suggest to me that I could not undo my wrongs. What do they think I've done? Commit murder, rape, or cause someone irreparable damage?

Anything I've done "wrong" could easily be "undone" via a simple apology.

No harm done.

In fact, my greatest "sin" in life would most likely be masturbation. If that's even a sin. And to be perfectly honest about it I see no reason to apologize for it. If there's a God I think he owes me an apology for having cursed me with such a powerful libido and not providing me with a suitable mate.

If there is a God he knows full well that I was prepared to marry as early as my late teens. Of course I wasn't prepared to just marry anyone. In fact, back then I was still a Christian, and I was actually waiting for the "right" woman. I even asked God to send me a compatible mate. Yet another prayer never answered.

If anyone was beaten and crucified on a pole for my sake he way OVER PAID.

In the Bible wage of sin is death. If you have sin, you will die.

I have done what Christianity would label sins both during and after I was a believer...and yet here I remain. Still alive.

Not only this, but why should anyone believe such utter nonsense. Where's the commandment in the Bible the commands, "Thou must be PERFECT and have no weaknesses of failings of any kind"?

This religion is actually a quite hateful religion when it condemns people for petty imperfections. It's truly an extremely hateful religion to place such an absurdly unrealistic guilt trip on people.

And IMHO, people need to be extremely naive to fall for such utter nonsense.

But it is possible to have sin forgiven and so get salvation from the judgment and death. And by the rights Jesus gives to his disciples, I could forgive you sins now and you don’t have to believe anything.

You can forgive people and thus save them from death?
That's a tall claim. You know what I need. It's a word beginning with E.

According to Jesus I wouldn't need 1213 to forgive me of my sins. According to Jesus I am the reason that all my sins have been forgiven.

Luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

I have forgiven everyone who as sinned against me, therefore according to Jesus I will be forgiven my sins due to the simple fact that I have forgiven everyone else.

So I don't need anyone's forgiveness according to Jesus.

The problem is, if now, after this forgiveness, you continue in sin, the forgiveness is not useful. That is why Jesus taught people should repent. Forgiveness is not useful, if person continues in sin.

Oh...so it's not as DI and I say? It's nothing to do with believing a specific Jew man got nailed to a pole 2,000 years ago, then got better?
Our behaviour DOES play a factor?

Exactly! It always come back to us having to EARN our own salvation. Christianity is the epitome of contradictory theologies.

Not only this, but according to Jesus (see Luke 6:37 above), it wouldn't matter if I continue to "sin" (i.e. masturbate - since this is about the only sin I ever commit ), I would still be forgiven because I forgive others.

So according to Jesus I've actually earned the right to continue to "sin" and still be forgiven my sins. This has to be the case lest Jesus becomes a liar. And we can't have that.

Why complain, if it is freely offered for all people? You can have sins forgiven, without any work, so I think there shouldn’t be any reason to complain.

DI and myself aren't complaining that we can have sins forgiven. We're talking about morality, and how apparently salvation in Christianity has little (or nothing) to do with our own actions. That it apparently fundamentally rests on whether or not we believe a Jew man got nailed to a pole, died and came back.

Exactly. No one is complaining about anything here.

I'm just pointing out that orthodox Christianity is absurd. As well as the ramblings of Paul.

But the way, even if Jesus was true, according to Luke 6:37 I cannot be condemned either.

Check it out:

Luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

I don't condemn anyone. Therefore according to Jesus I cannot be condemned anyway. Lest Jesus become a liar.

Or we could claim that Luke was the liar and that Jesus never said these things. But if that's the case then who could say what Jesus might have ever said?

According to Luke, Jesus has already told me what I must do in order to avoid condemnation and obtain eternal life.

All I need to do is not judge others, not condemn others, and forgive everyone who sins against me. It just so happens that I qualify for all those conditions without even trying. It's just a description who I am and who I have always been. I've never judged others on moral grounds, I've never wished that anyone should be condemned, and I have always forgiven everyone who has sinned against me. So I satisfy the requirements that Jesus lays out in Luke 6:37. And therefore according to Jesus I will not be judged, I will not be condemned, and even if I am guilty of sinning I will be forgiven anyway.

So according to Jesus my destiny to heaven is guaranteed lest Jesus be a liar.

And I don't even need to quite sinning. Nor do I even need to believe in Jesus. He also said that it's not important to believe in him or in his words.

It's only those nasty Christians who would like to see me condemned. They should try reading Luke 6:37 and stop condemning others. That's not a wise thing to do according to Jesus.

According to Jesus I won't even be judged on judgement day. Read Luke 6:37. I have not judged others, therefore I will not be judged according to Jesus himself.

Therefore on Judgment Day I won't need to even show up for trial. Instead the pearly gates will just open for me automatically like the doors of a Walmart Supercenter.

And I'll just walk right in. No questions asked. So says Jesus.

So if Jesus was real, then I'm not the least bit worried about my destiny in the afterlife. I won't even need to bother with "Judgement Day", I've already been exonerated of all wrong doing via my own character. This comes straight from the mouth of Jesus (well, assuming Luke wasn't lying).

But clearly Paul had no clue what he was talking about. Paul's claims are the total opposite of what Jesus had to say. Paul must have been a false prophet that Jesus warned us about.

[bjs]

How dare someone suggest to me that I could not undo my wrongs. What do they think I've done? Commit murder, rape, or cause someone irreparable damage?

Anything I've done "wrong" could easily be "undone" via a simple apology.

No harm done.

I just want to point out that this is false. If someone needs to apologize then harm has been done. That person might receive compassion in the form of unmerited mercy, but harm has been done. The person harmed might show mercy when an apology is issued, but that does not change the past or cause the harm (which created the need for an apology) not to have happened.

[tam]

How dare someone suggest to me that I could not undo my wrongs. What do they think I've done? Commit murder, rape, or cause someone irreparable damage?

Anything I've done "wrong" could easily be "undone" via a simple apology.

No harm done.

I just want to point out that this is false. If someone needs to apologize then harm has been done. That person might receive compassion in the form of unmerited mercy, but harm has been done. The person harmed might show mercy when an apology is issued, but that does not change the past or cause the harm (which created the need for an apology) not to have happened.

Yes, a wrong can be forgiven. That does not mean that an apology undoes the wrong.




Peace to you both!

[bjs]

[Replying to post 1 by Divine Insight]

Christianity is not “about� morality. It is about a relationship with the living God.

That relationship includes morality, as the four Evangelists and Paul repeatedly pointed out, but it is more than just morality.

The “the stories of Yahweh and Jesus� are another part of that relationship, but again not the whole of it.

However, it seems that your focus is entirely on eternal salvation, which is also a part (but not the whole) of a relationship with God. On this account, orthodox Christianity stands apart from the other world religions. Most world religions teach that life is a balance of some kind, and salvation in whatever form that takes comes from having more good in our balance than evil; or at the very least keeping the balance neutral.

Orthodox Christianity holds that eternal life – to know God forever – is an act of grace on God’s part. God introduces Himself to us. God gives faith itself as a gift to those who will accept it. God restores the broken relationship and then maintains it. God redeems the fallen and offers eternity in his presence as an unmerited gift.

If someone believes in the Metaphysical, and that salvation can be achieved by virtue of their deeds, then any of the other world religions would have a place for them. Orthodox Christianity does not.

If you believe that you have done nothing wrong, then orthodox Christianity has nothing for you. If you believe yourself worthy of eternal life, then orthodox Christianity has nothing for you. The Author of our faith said that he did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.

[Divine Insight]

How dare someone suggest to me that I could not undo my wrongs. What do they think I've done? Commit murder, rape, or cause someone irreparable damage?

Anything I've done "wrong" could easily be "undone" via a simple apology.

No harm done.

I just want to point out that this is false. If someone needs to apologize then harm has been done. That person might receive compassion in the form of unmerited mercy, but harm has been done. The person harmed might show mercy when an apology is issued, but that does not change the past or cause the harm (which created the need for an apology) not to have happened.

This is utterly absurd. Who is being harmed when I masturbate?

Or am I wrong and masturbation is NOT a sin in Christianity?

Like Rikuo previously asked, "Exactly what is it that we are being charged with?"

Maybe I'm totally sin free?

Also, what about a harmless lie? In fact, what about a HELPFUL lie?

Who is being harmed then?

Would we need to apologize to Nazis for lying to them concerning the whereabouts of innocent Jews?

You guys need to rethink your religious claims.

Not only was no harm done in lying to the Nazis, but actually harm was avoided by lying to Nazis.

Christianity is utterly absurd, and totally unrealistic.

[Divine Insight]

Yes, a wrong can be forgiven. That does not mean that an apology undoes the wrong.

See my previous post #17.

Is lying a sin in Christianity? If so, then Christianity is utterly absurd.

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 13 by Divine Insight]

This religion is actually a quite hateful religion when it condemns people for petty imperfections.

Consider someone with a weak character spending their life overindulging in promiscuity, drugs, drunkenness and so on. They become abusive and turn to crime and possibly end up in prison. At some point they come to realise how pathetic they have become and turn to religion to provide a crutch to turn their life around. As a repentant Christian they are then forgiven all their sins and promised a place in heaven with eternal bliss. Of course there is no compensation for all the victims of their sins or the immeasurable pain and misery they have caused. They believe and that is all that counts.

On the other hand we have someone who has led a blameless life in comparison. Honest, hard working, kind and generous to a fault. No harm ever done to anyone apart from the usual day to day disagreements. But then amends are made and all is forgiven. Unfortunately for this person, the claims in the Bible are just not convincing. They are unable to believe and cannot become the repentant Christian above. Consequence? No heaven or bliss, just an eternity in hell or possibly oblivion.

What sort of deity presides over a religion like that?

[bjs]

This is utterly absurd. Who is being harmed when I masturbate?

Or am I wrong and masturbation is NOT a sin in Christianity?

You wrote: "Anything I've done "wrong" could easily be "undone" via a simple apology."

Who did you apologize to?