What type of design is this?

[OnceConvinced]

Presuming God is real and presuming demons and Satan is real...

Presuming God created them as angels and then the ones that rebelled became the demons, let by Satan himself. These fallen angels became so corrupt that they became completely evil, with no redeeming features at all.

So God created these beings and for whatever reason they became pure evil. Yet God, even if he didn't know for sure, had a good idea they would become that way. Yet he created them anyway, knowing they would be come corrupted and turn against him.

Or maybe he had no idea at all? Maybe their corruption was a complete surprise to him?

The thing is for them to become corrupt, they must have been designed in such a way that would allow them to become corrupt.

So....
What sort of design would this be?

Malevolent?
Incompetent?
Intelligent?

Please justify your answer.

[bluethread]

Why can't it be intelligent design that is malevolent to some and benevolent to others?

We're talking specifically about the creation of angels who went on to attempt to destroy the rest of creation.

How is that in any way benevolent to anyone?

It can show the power of Adonai over His creation, by showing that creation can not actually destroy creation. This would benevolent those who He does favor, would it not?

[OnceConvinced]

I see we have two people so far who have voted for intelligent design, but so far it seems these people are ignoring the actual scenario that has been posed here.

We're not talking about creation in general. We are talking solely about the creation of beings who went on and became evil and attempted to destroy everything that God created.

Nor are we talking about whether God is intelligent or not. We are talking solely about the design and creation of these beings that went on to become evil and attempted to destroy everything that God created. We are talking about one act of creation, not all of them.

How can you possibly vote "Intelligent Design" when it comes to designing and creating beings that would go on to attempt to destroy all the good works you've done? That would seem very foolish to me.

Perhaps I should have added another option:

"Foolish Design". Perhaps that is the better description?

[bluethread]

Intelligent design is dependent upon it's use within a system. A rock is intelligently designed as a paper weight, but not as a gear in a machine. Is a rock that just sits there intelligently designed? Who can say?

[OnceConvinced]

Why can't it be intelligent design that is malevolent to some and benevolent to others?

We're talking specifically about the creation of angels who went on to attempt to destroy the rest of creation.

How is that in any way benevolent to anyone?

It can show the power of Adonai over His creation, by showing that creation can not actually destroy creation.

How is it benevolent to create creatures that would even attempt to do that?

Remember these creations are destroying lives and manipulating people to reject God. Millions of these people will burn in Hell because of this.

And why is it so important that he shows his power? Is this an ego trip?
And what's the point? What is that going to achieve?

This would benevolent those who He does favor, would it not

Oh so if Hitler had released a few Jews, you'd be calling him benevolent?

A few people God does a favour for. The majority he sentences to Hell. Are the majority collateral damage?

No, I would not call a being who does favours for only a few people, benevolent, while ignoring the rest. They still had to suffer due to Satan and his minions, didn't they?

But let's go back to the creation of the angels shall we? Let's not even bring humans into it, because it's irrelevant really. He created beings he knew would do their darndest to destroy everything and he knew the damage they would do, even if not perhaps destroying it completely.

Is there anything at all on this planet that has not been negatively affected by Satan and his minions?

[bluethread]

How is it benevolent to create creatures that would even attempt to do that?

Remember these creations are destroying lives and manipulating people to reject God. Millions of these people will burn in Hell because of this.

And why is it so important that he shows his power? Is this an ego trip?
And what's the point? What is that going to achieve?

It is benevolent as a teaching tool for His people. It is not necessarily benevolent for others. If it is an "ego trip", so what? We create many things that are destructive and/or for the purpose of being destroyed, and often as part of an "ego trip"?

This would benevolent those who He does favor, would it not

Oh so if Hitler had released a few Jews, you'd be calling him benevolent?

On the whole, no. With regard to those he released, yes. However, Hitler did not create the Jews, so that is a straw man argument.

A few people God does a favour for. The majority he sentences to Hell. Are the majority collateral damage?

No, I would not call a being who does favours for only a few people, benevolent, while ignoring the rest. They still had to suffer due to Satan and his minions, didn't they?

Do you always answer your own questions? It appears that you are seeing benevolence as an absolute. If that is the case there are no benevolent people, because no one acts favorably to everyone.

But let's go back to the creation of the angels shall we? Let's not even bring humans into it, because it's irrelevant really. He created beings he knew would do their darndest to destroy everything and he knew the damage they would do, even if not perhaps destroying it completely.

Is there anything at all on this planet that has not been negatively affected by Satan and his minions?

No, it is not irrelevant, especially for us. You say let's leave humans out of it, then you ask "Is there anything at all on this planet . . . ". You yourself are asking about their place within the realm of humans.

[OnceConvinced]

On the whole, no. With regard to those he released, yes. However, Hitler did not create the Jews, so that is a straw man argument.

Which makes God worse. He created angels (and people) he knew he would later need to get rid of.

Its not straw man at all. Im simply making a point that just because someone does a few benevolent acts does not make them a benevolent being. Nor does it indicate benevolent design.

A few people God does a favour for. The majority he sentences to Hell. Are the majority collateral damage?

No, I would not call a being who does favours for only a few people, benevolent, while ignoring the rest. They still had to suffer due to Satan and his minions, didn't they?

Do you always answer your own questions?

Excuse me, you were the one who asked: This would benevolent those who He does favor, would it not

It appears that you are seeing benevolence as an absolute. If that is the case there are no benevolent people, because no one acts favorably to everyone.

Im trying to focus on design of angels only (see the OP). It is you talking about how someone can be both malevolent and benevolent.

Let me give another analogy that might help get my point across. I used it before, but Ill take it one step further so that we bring in your scenario.

A developer creates a software program where there is a button that can be pushed that causes a self destruct. A user comes along to press that button.

Suddenly the developer steps in and says No, dont press that button and saves the user from dying in a massive explosion.

Does this mean the developer did a benevolent act because he saved that user?

No, of course it doesnt, because hes the one who designed and created that program. Hes the one who included the self-destruct program to being with! The fact that its there at all is malevolent and not benevolent to anyone. Simply because he stepped in and stopped the user from activating it doesnt change the fact that the design was malevolent from the beginning.

Now apply this to creation. God created the system. The user came along (humans) and exercised their freewill, doing what they wanted with the system. As a result sin entered and the wrong button was pushed (sin). Immediately everything became corrupted (new sub routines kicked in which made things nasty " like pain at child birth). Then God sends Jesus along (himself in human form) to get some humans out of the mess. He saves some. Nevertheless, the mess only came about to begin with because of the way the system was designed (with harmful sub routines). It was designed with a self destruct button which activated as soon as someone used it wrongly.

But let's go back to the creation of the angels shall we? Let's not even bring humans into it, because it's irrelevant really. He created beings he knew would do their darndest to destroy everything and he knew the damage they would do, even if not perhaps destroying it completely.

Is there anything at all on this planet that has not been negatively affected by Satan and his minions?

No, it is not irrelevant, especially for us. You say let's leave humans out of it, then you ask "Is there anything at all on this planet . . . ". You yourself are asking about their place within the realm of humans.

[/quote]

I admit it is difficult to keep the topic of humans out of this, but they keep being mentioned. However it was not my intention to talk about humans and Im trying her to get your to look at more than just humans.

Please have a go at answering that question again:
Is there anything at all on this planet that has not been negatively affected by Satan and his minions?

If you can answer that with a straight answer, wed be able to move on. If everything, (even humans) are affected negatively by Satan and his minions, then how can that be considered benevolent at all?

(Ok, that's me done for the week. Out for the next 3-4 days)

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 55 by bluethread]

It is benevolent as a teaching tool for His people.

Like allowing a serial killer of young women to remain loose and continue on his spree in order to teach women to be more careful.

[bluethread]

On the whole, no. With regard to those he released, yes. However, Hitler did not create the Jews, so that is a straw man argument.

Which makes God worse. He created angels (and people) he knew he would later need to get rid of.

Its not straw man at all. Im simply making a point that just because someone does a few benevolent acts does not make them a benevolent being. Nor does it indicate benevolent design.

Again, from the perspective of those angels (and people). So, one must ask, for what purpose was it designed?

A few people God does a favour for. The majority he sentences to Hell. Are the majority collateral damage?

No, I would not call a being who does favours for only a few people, benevolent, while ignoring the rest. They still had to suffer due to Satan and his minions, didn't they?

Do you always answer your own questions?

Excuse me, you were the one who asked: This would benevolent those who He does favor, would it not

However, I did not presume an answer, but let you respond.

It appears that you are seeing benevolence as an absolute. If that is the case there are no benevolent people, because no one acts favorably to everyone.

Im trying to focus on design of angels only (see the OP). It is you talking about how someone can be both malevolent and benevolent.

Let me give another analogy that might help get my point across. I used it before, but Ill take it one step further so that we bring in your scenario.

A developer creates a software program where there is a button that can be pushed that causes a self destruct. A user comes along to press that button.

Suddenly the developer steps in and says No, dont press that button and saves the user from dying in a massive explosion.

Does this mean the developer did a benevolent act because he saved that user?

No, of course it doesnt, because hes the one who designed and created that program. Hes the one who included the self-destruct program to being with! The fact that its there at all is malevolent and not benevolent to anyone. Simply because he stepped in and stopped the user from activating it doesnt change the fact that the design was malevolent from the beginning.

Again, this is not an appropriate analogy. You say you want to talk only about the angels, in isolation. The developer did not create the user, as Adonai did with the angels. If we are talking about an avatar in the program, that would be malevolent from the perspective of the avatar. However, what programmer creates a program simply for the sake of the avatar? Most, if not all create programs for a particular purpose which may or may not be beneficial for a particular part of the program.

Now apply this to creation. God created the system. The user came along (humans) and exercised their freewill, doing what they wanted with the system. As a result sin entered and the wrong button was pushed (sin). Immediately everything became corrupted (new sub routines kicked in which made things nasty " like pain at child birth). Then God sends Jesus along (himself in human form) to get some humans out of the mess. He saves some. Nevertheless, the mess only came about to begin with because of the way the system was designed (with harmful sub routines). It was designed with a self destruct button which activated as soon as someone used it wrongly.

The user did not come along. The user is an avatar in the program. The avatar changed the program and the program automatically adjusted to accommodate the alteration. The programmer communicated to the avatar that, if the avatar trusted in the programmer and followed the new programming, there is a subroutine that will permit the avatar to reset. The programmer then provides to that avatar instructions regarding how that avatar can follow the new programming such that it would be an example to all other avatars in the program. The programmer then creates another avatar that reacts to his controller and takes that avatar through the program as an example of how an avatar can follow the new programming.

Now, all of this is indeed created by the programmer for his own amusement. Such programming will cause the avatars to go through many experiences some of which the avatars might find malevolent and others that the avatars find benevolent. That said, on the whole, those avatars that do not reset view the programmer as malevolent and the ones that do reset see the programmer as benevolent.

I admit it is difficult to keep the topic of humans out of this, but they keep being mentioned. However it was not my intention to talk about humans and Im trying her to get your to look at more than just humans.

Please have a go at answering that question again:
Is there anything at all on this planet that has not been negatively affected by Satan and his minions?

Negatively effected in relation to what? Negative is a comparative. If not in relation to humans, how are we to judge what is positive or negative?

If you can answer that with a straight answer, wed be able to move on. If everything, (even humans) are affected negatively by Satan and his minions, then how can that be considered benevolent at all?

Again, that depends on the perspective. What is the purpose the we are to view as being positively ofr negatively effected. I'll be watching for your response next week. Shabbat Shaloam.

[Clownboat]

Intelligent design is dependent upon it's use within a system. A rock is intelligently designed as a paper weight, but not as a gear in a machine. Is a rock that just sits there intelligently designed? Who can say?

Why the inability to address the creation of angels and how they became evil?

Your god concept should not have allowed this. Can you show that I am wrong and that it should have created angels which it then allowed to become evil, rebel and corrupt?

This is one of those questions I was struggling with before I was freed from my faith. To this day, I have yet to hear a working explanation. You now dance around this scenario like I once did.

On top off all of this we hear many Christians say that a god cannot make himself known, or that would supersede our free will. This is obviously false as Lucifer and the angels knew this god and still chose to rebel. (Just more illogic in the story).

[Bust Nak]

It is less obvious that is a logical inconsistency. Can a human give birth to another human that is also themselves?

By "also themselves," you mean identical copies? If so, sure.

Can you really imagine perfection making perfection...

Yes. Can't you?

If you think God creating a perfect copy of God is a logical impossibility then you are left with the conclusion that God cannot create anything, because any creation is by definition not perfect.