For which Jehovah should we witness?

[dakoski]

Jesus claimed to be the sent one from Jehovah (i.e. the angel of Jehovah as angel means ‘sent one’) e.g. Matt 10:40, 15:24, 21:37; Mark 9:37, 12:6; Luke 4:18, 4:43, 9:48, 10:16.; John 3:34, 4:34, 5:23, 5:24, 5:30, 5:36, 5:37, 5;38, 6:38, 6:44, 6:57, 7:16 etc. He also claimed to be the unique revelation of Jehovah: ‘No one knows the Father but the Son and those to whom he chooses to reveal him.’ (Matt 11:27)

The angel of Jehovah is a central figure throughout the Hebrew Scriptures (e.g. Genesis chapters 16, 18-19, 21, 24, 28, 31, 48; Exodus 3, 23, 24, 28, 31, 32, 33-34; Numbers 22; Judges 2, 5, 6, 13 etc.). He is the unique revelation of Jehovah, both referred to as Jehovah but also distinguished from Jehovah in the heavens who no one may see and live. There are a vast number of references where the angel of Jehovah is addressed as Jehovah so there’s only space for a few key examples but we can work through as many as you wish:

1) Gen 18-19.
18:1 makes clear Jehovah appears to Abraham. 19:1 clarifies that of the three people who visit Abraham two of these were angels who are then sent to Sodom. The person left with Abraham continues to be addressed as Jehovah (e.g. 18:20, 22, 26) by Abraham and the narrator. Then the angel of Jehovah leaves Abraham (18:33) and goes to Sodom to destroy the city: "By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens." (Gen 19:23-24)

Of course the word translated Lord here is Jehovah. Even more interesting is that the person who speaks with Abraham and who goes down to Sodom is addressed as Jehovah and is distinguished from another person in the heavens also addressed as Jehovah. This is found in the JW’s NWT as well as all other translations

2) Exodus 33. This passage similarly distinguishes between a person addressed as Jehovah who spoke regularly with Moses face to face (v11) and another person also addressed as Jehovah who no one may see face to face and live (v20). Again this is found in the JW’s NWT as well as all other translations.

Questions for debate:
1) Do you think Jesus was claiming to be the angel of Jehovah mentioned in the Old Testament?

2) Do you agree that the angel of Jehovah was referred to as Jehovah, yet distinguished from Jehovah in the heavens? If not, what do you think these passages are teaching?

3) What is the significance of the angel of Jehovah being addressed as Jehovah:

a) Does it just reflect that the angel of Jehovah as ambassador was speaking on behalf of Jehovah but was not actually Jehovah? If this was common practice, wouldn’t we expect to see many examples of other ambassadors of Jehovah being referred to as Jehovah? Was any other angel, prophet, or messenger referred to as Jehovah?

b) Does it reflect that Jehovah is not a single person God? But rather that Jehovah in the heavens has always sent another person, who equally bears the divine name Jehovah, as a mediator with humanity?

[dakoski]

[Replying to post 1 by dakoski]

The "angel of Jehovah" seems to be a reference to YHVH's immanance. In Heaven, He is the transcendent Jehovah. On earth "angel of Jehovah" is one of His appellations. Other terms for His immanence could be "Shekinah of YHVH", "the Holy Spirit" and "Immanuel".

It is unclear if Jesus claimed to have been the "angel of Jehovah" though the Evangelist refers to him as "Immanuel".

The notion that God can be both immanent and transcendent does not necessitate the construct of the Trinity. The doctrine of His omnipresence easily covers His ability to "bi-locate".

1) Does Jesus claim to be 'the angel of Jehovah'?

Angel of Jehovah - simply means one sent by Jehovah. I've quoted many verses in the OP showing Jesus refering to himself that way:
Jesus claimed to be the sent one from Jehovah e.g. Matt 10:40, 15:24, 21:37; Mark 9:37, 12:6; Luke 4:18, 4:43, 9:48, 10:16.; John 3:34, 4:34, 5:23, 5:24, 5:30, 5:36, 5:37, 5;38, 6:38, 6:44, 6:57, 7:16 etc.

Is he an angel of Jehovah or the angel of Jehovah? I think the latter - his mission was unique: ‘No one knows the Father but the Son and those to whom he chooses to reveal him.’ (Matt 11:27)

2) The problem with arguing the angel of Jehovah who speaks face to face with Abraham (Genesis 18-19), Moses (Exodus 33:11), Isaiah (Isaiah 6) and others is the same person as YHWH who no one may see and live (Exodus 33:20) is that it leads to a logical contradiction.

The only way that I can see to interpret these verses is that these passages are referring to distinct persons yet at the same time both are referred to as YHWH.

[JehovahsWitness]

The only way that I can see to interpret these verses is that these passages are referring to distinct persons yet at the same time both are referred to as YHWH.

So are you suggesting this "angel of Jehovah" (an angel sent by "the SENDER") who is in fact EQUAL to the one that sent him?

[dakoski]

The only way that I can see to interpret these verses is that these passages are referring to distinct persons yet at the same time both are referred to as YHWH.

So are you suggesting this "angel of Jehovah" (an angel sent by "the SENDER") who is in fact EQUAL to the one that sent him?

I refer my honourable friend to my previous responses to the same question you’ve asked several times in the thread. Do you have a follow up to any of my earlier responses?

Do you agree that males and females share the same human nature, yet are distinct from one another? Do you agree that husbands and wives have different roles but are both equally human?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 113 by dakoski]

Can you link me to the post? I honestly believe you have never said yes or no the question of whether the sender and the sender are equal but I will happily stand corrected if you can link me to a post with the three letter word "yes" or the two letter word "no" in it.


If "no" and you belief this "Angel f Jehovah" accepted to be refered to as Jehovah during his interaction with Abraham but he is not equal to the person who sent him.". ..then we have common ground.

[dakoski]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Can you link me to the post? I honestly believe you have never said yes or no the question of whether the sender and the sender are equal but I will happily stand corrected if you can link me to a post with the three letter word "yes" or the two letter word "no" in it.


If "no" and you belief this "Angel f Jehovah" accepted to be refered to as Jehovah during his interaction with Abraham but he is not equal to the person who sent him.". ..then we have common ground.

I've answered your question in posts 27, 34 and probably a number of other places in the thread I stopped counting there.

Would you care to answer my questions, or did you miss them? I believe I've asked this a number of times without a response. To assist you here it is again:

Do you agree that males and females share the same human nature, yet are distinct from one another? Do you agree that husbands and wives have different roles but are both equally human?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 115 by dakoski

Maybe I'm just not clever enough to decipher what you are saying, the posts you pointed to do not contain the words yes or the word no, just a lot of other words that I'm sure support your position but it's not clear what that position is.


I understand you believe there are two distinct person's. I agree

That one is called "the angel of Jehovah" I agree

An angel that allows himself to be addressed during missions on earth as Jehovah. I agree

The other sent sàid angel. I agree


BUT... are both person's equal? I cannot say because you have never once stated outright in plain language that you believe them both to be equal.

JW

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 1 by dakoski]

The "angel of Jehovah" seems to be a reference to YHVH's immanance. In Heaven, He is the transcendent Jehovah. On earth "angel of Jehovah" is one of His appellations. Other terms for His immanence could be "Shekinah of YHVH", "the Holy Spirit" and "Immanuel".

It is unclear if Jesus claimed to have been the "angel of Jehovah" though the Evangelist refers to him as "Immanuel".

The notion that God can be both immanent and transcendent does not necessitate the construct of the Trinity. The doctrine of His omnipresence easily covers His ability to "bi-locate".

1) Does Jesus claim to be 'the angel of Jehovah'?

Angel of Jehovah - simply means one sent by Jehovah. I've quoted many verses in the OP showing Jesus refering to himself that way:
Jesus claimed to be the sent one from Jehovah e.g. Matt 10:40, 15:24, 21:37; Mark 9:37, 12:6; Luke 4:18, 4:43, 9:48, 10:16.; John 3:34, 4:34, 5:23, 5:24, 5:30, 5:36, 5:37, 5;38, 6:38, 6:44, 6:57, 7:16 etc.

Is he an angel of Jehovah or the angel of Jehovah? I think the latter - his mission was unique: ‘No one knows the Father but the Son and those to whom he chooses to reveal him.’ (Matt 11:27)

2) The problem with arguing the angel of Jehovah who speaks face to face with Abraham (Genesis 18-19), Moses (Exodus 33:11), Isaiah (Isaiah 6) and others is the same person as YHWH who no one may see and live (Exodus 33:20) is that it leads to a logical contradiction.

The only way that I can see to interpret these verses is that these passages are referring to distinct persons yet at the same time both are referred to as YHWH.

What about the notion that "the angel of Jehovah" is just one of several ways to refer to Jehovah's presence on earth. I.e. his immanance?

If that is the case, there is no need to seperate them into "distinct Persons", and no need for a Trinity theological construct.

The doctrine of Jehovah's omnipresence easily covers his presence in Heaven, as well as His simultaneous presence on earth, however one refers to that immanent presence.

To refer to that immanent presence as the "Angel of Jehovah" is simply a literary, mythic way to convey that Theophany.

Perhaps I am not taking it literally enough, but on the other hand, perhaps you are reading the ancient text way too literally.

[dakoski]

[Replying to post 115 by dakoski

Maybe I'm just not clever enough to decipher what you are saying, the posts you pointed to do not contain the words yes or the word no, just a lot of other words that I'm sure support your position but it's not clear what that position is.


I understand you believe there are two distinct person's.

That one is called "the angel of Jehovah"

The other sent sàid angel.

BUT... are both person's equal?

JW

I've answered your question several times. I've answered a number of other questions from you in this thread, but there has to be some reciprocity. If you'd like me to expand on my answer that I've already provided several times I'm happy to, but there are two conditions:

1) I'll answer your question with the words that I choose, not the words that you choose for me.

2) I'll expand on the responses I have previously given to your question once you've actually answered my questions. Here they are again:

Do you agree that males and females are equally human, yet are distinct from one another?

Do you agree that husbands and wives have different roles but are both equally human?

[JehovahsWitness]

Do you agree that males and females are equally human, yet are distinct from one another?

Do you agree that husbands and wives have different roles but are both equally human?

Yes. A Wife and a husband are both human (flesh and blood carbon based intelligent beings)

Yes. Both have different roles the husband having more physical power than his wife and having more authority than his wife. In short they are both human but they are not equal. The Husband being "head" the "Chief" "The boss" or however one wants to put it. The wife being the 2nd in Command, the "assistant" or in biblical terms "The Helper". They are not equal in authority , responsibilities, "rank" or power.


NB CHILDREN are also 100% human. They are not equal to their parents, their parents (not to put too fine a point on it) "out rank them" with more experience, more physical power and more influence.

I understand you believe there are two distinct person's. I agree

That one is called "the angel of Jehovah" I agree

An angel that allows himself to be addressed during missions on earth as Jehovah. I agree

The other sent sàid angel. I agree

Do you believe that both The Sender and the Angel are equally spirits (non fleshly intelligent beings) but not equal in power and position?



JW

[dakoski]

[Replying to post 1 by dakoski]

The "angel of Jehovah" seems to be a reference to YHVH's immanance. In Heaven, He is the transcendent Jehovah. On earth "angel of Jehovah" is one of His appellations. Other terms for His immanence could be "Shekinah of YHVH", "the Holy Spirit" and "Immanuel".

It is unclear if Jesus claimed to have been the "angel of Jehovah" though the Evangelist refers to him as "Immanuel".

The notion that God can be both immanent and transcendent does not necessitate the construct of the Trinity. The doctrine of His omnipresence easily covers His ability to "bi-locate".

1) Does Jesus claim to be 'the angel of Jehovah'?

Angel of Jehovah - simply means one sent by Jehovah. I've quoted many verses in the OP showing Jesus refering to himself that way:
Jesus claimed to be the sent one from Jehovah e.g. Matt 10:40, 15:24, 21:37; Mark 9:37, 12:6; Luke 4:18, 4:43, 9:48, 10:16.; John 3:34, 4:34, 5:23, 5:24, 5:30, 5:36, 5:37, 5;38, 6:38, 6:44, 6:57, 7:16 etc.

Is he an angel of Jehovah or the angel of Jehovah? I think the latter - his mission was unique: ‘No one knows the Father but the Son and those to whom he chooses to reveal him.’ (Matt 11:27)

2) The problem with arguing the angel of Jehovah who speaks face to face with Abraham (Genesis 18-19), Moses (Exodus 33:11), Isaiah (Isaiah 6) and others is the same person as YHWH who no one may see and live (Exodus 33:20) is that it leads to a logical contradiction.

The only way that I can see to interpret these verses is that these passages are referring to distinct persons yet at the same time both are referred to as YHWH.

What about the notion that "the angel of Jehovah" is just one of several ways to refer to Jehovah's presence on earth. I.e. his immanance?

If that is the case, there is no need to seperate them into "distinct Persons", and no need for a Trinity theological construct.

The doctrine of Jehovah's omnipresence easily covers his presence in Heaven, as well as His simultaneous presence on earth, however one refers to that immanent presence.

To refer to that immanent presence as the "Angel of Jehovah" is simply a literary, mythic way to convey that Theophany.

Perhaps I am not taking it literally enough, but on the other hand, perhaps you are reading the ancient text way too literally.

You're free to interpret it that way if you like, I just don't see there's much justification for interpreting the text that way.

Also you've not responded to the point that your interpretation leads to a logical contradiction.