Cultural influence.

[Elijah John]

Western Civilization is a Trinitarian, Jesus-worshipping culture, with the exception of specifically secular institutions, and of course, dissenting, skeptical individuals. Even if people don't give it a whole lot of thought, it seems the average Westerner pays lip service at the very least to the notion that "Jesus is God".

For this OP, let's not quibble with the premise.

In light of the prevailing Christian culture, the question for debate is this. How much influence does that Christian culture have on whether a given individual raised in this culture believes or professes that "Jesus is God"?

Call it brainwashing (at worst) or call it indocrination, or call it influence at best, how much of a factor is culture in determining whether someone assents to the notion that "Jesus is God" even if in absence of deep thoughtful consideration?

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 10 by Divine Insight]

The topic is not whether either of them "make sense" that is another topic. You are derailing the thread, but it is partially my fault for indulging some of your tangential questions.

Let's get back on topic, please. I'll ask the "Son of God" question for you in the specific user forum.

This thread is an invitation to explore the degree that cultural influence has on belief, specifically regarding the Divinity of Jesus in Western countries.

[Tart]

Western Civilization is a Trinitarian, Jesus-worshipping culture, with the exception of specifically secular institutions, and of course, dissenting, skeptical individuals. Even if people don't give it a whole lot of thought, it seems the average Westerner pays lip service at the very least to the notion that "Jesus is God".

For this OP, let's not quibble with the premise.

In light of the prevailing Christian culture, the question for debate is this. How much influence does that Christian culture have on whether a given individual raised in this culture believes or professes that "Jesus is God"?

Call it brainwashing (at worst) or call it indocrination, or call it influence at best, how much of a factor is culture in determining whether someone assents to the notion that "Jesus is God" even if in absence of deep thoughtful consideration?

Great question, so I dont know how to answer this for the western culture as a whole... Perhaps some people believe because their parents believed it. Perhaps some people believe because the culture believes it. Maybe they just take on an appeal to authority, or an appeal to popularity, or something like that, i dont know..

All i know is how to answer this question for me... Why do I believe, how did I come to believe? My personal experience seems to be at odds with this topic, and more aligned with Christianity itself.

When I came to believing in Jesus Christ, I didnt live with my parents (in fact my parents had no idea where i was at the time), they were not influencing me. My peers were all nonbelievers, i was in social groups who openly mocked and rejected Jesus... It would seem that the influence in my life was in non-belief, and in fact that is true, i was just going along with other people... When I joined a social group who mocked and rejected Jesus i thought nothing of it and just went along with whatever...

It was only later, that i started to question these people, and even further in the future when i started to wonder about the legitimacy of Christianity.

After i read the Bible, i realized this was all a part of Gods plan. The Bible is prophetic, and it reveals things on a personal level.

For example, as Jesus was quoted saying:

"Have you never read in the Scriptures: "'The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes'?"~Jesus

That seemed to be true in my life. Before I was a Christian, I didnt even know of any Christians among my peers. Everyone that I identified as my friends, and the people I looked up to, all rejected Jesus... And when I came to believing in Christianity, it was completely on my own accord, and from my own personal searching.

The scripture tells us that there are many on the broad road, leading to destruction. That the majority are on it, and that the narrow road leads to life, and few will find it... How narrow is that road? People say it is as narrow as one man...

So this topic doesn't align with Christian teachings, and it doesn't align with my own personal experiences... My personal experiences align more with Christianity, which is a part of the reason of why i believe it... This topic is more of what people say about Christianity, but not of what it really seems to be like...

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 12 by Tart]

Good answer. Yes, if you don't feel comfortable in speaking for the culture as a whole, (what you observe of it anyway) pesonal experience is certainly welcome! It may be more and more true nowadays, that Jesus is less and less "fashionable". That seems to be the experience which you transcended. You had a counter-cultural reaction to your counter-cultural circle of friends.

Now, your Christian views are in harmony with the larger society. But it seems that very society had very little influence in your thinking, and your decision. You seemed to have arrived at your decision independently, with very little "peer pressure" to do so.

[Divine Insight]

This thread is an invitation to explore the degree that cultural influence has on belief, specifically regarding the Divinity of Jesus in Western countries.

It can have absolutely no influence whatsoever. The claim that Jesus is the virgin born Son of God is already written into the Gospels. No culture can change that.

In fact, if you claim otherwise, then you have either not read the Christian Gospels, or you have flat out rejected what they say.

In fact, what are you even calling a "Western Culture"? Can you be more specific on which cultures you are referring to as being "Western".

To people in the Far East the entire Abrahamic folklore is "Western Culture". Those people are typically Pantheists.

The Jewish people are a "Western Culture".

So what do you even mean by "Western Culture"?

Christianity is a "Western religion" as is Judaism and Islam. They are all based on the same underlying folklore of the Old Testament. They only disagree when it comes to how they view Jesus. And if they don't view Jesus as the virgin-born "Son of God" who was given by God as the sacrificial lamb to pay for the sins of men, then they aren't "Christians".

It's that simple.

Whether they want to think of Jesus as God himself, or as a polytheistic demigod Son of God, is certainly open to debate.

But there really aren't any other options available.

Jesus as merely just another prophet is NOT Christianity. That's not the story of the Christian Gospels.

So if that's your position, then you aren't talking about Christianity. You're either talking about Judaism, or Islam.

[Divine Insight]

When I came to believing in Jesus Christ

So what is Jesus Christ to you?

Is Jesus Christ God?

[Tart]

When I came to believing in Jesus Christ

So what is Jesus Christ to you?

Is Jesus Christ God?

saviour

[Tcg]

Now, your Christian views are in harmony with the larger society. But it seems that very society had very little influence in your thinking, and your decision. You seemed to have arrived at your decision independently, with very little "peer pressure" to do so.

I'm not sure if I can agree with that fully. We are left with the question of why Tart turned to some version of the Christian Bible.

There are many religious texts he could have turned to and in another culture he almost undoubtedly would have.

Also when he states this:

"When I came to believing in Jesus Christ, I didnt live with my parents (in fact my parents had no idea where i was at the time), they were not influencing me."

He is ignoring the totality of influence family/parents have on individuals. It is not simply what they may be encouraging you to do in the present, but also much more the influence they have had over a lifetime. Parents could be dead and still have a major influence on their children's beliefs and actions.

Tart hasn't said, but it is possible that his parents weren't Christians and therefore had no Christian influence on him. This still leaves us with the question of why he turned to the Bible and not some other religious or even non-religious text for help.

[Divine Insight]

When I came to believing in Jesus Christ

So what is Jesus Christ to you?

Is Jesus Christ God?

saviour

Seems like a vague answer to avoid the real question.

An honest answer to the question "Is Jesus Christ God?", is simply yes or no. He either is, or he isn't.

Saying that Jesus Christ is "Savior" doesn't answer the question that was asked. That's an answer of avoidance.

Questions:

1. Do you believe that Jesus was born of a virgin mortal woman who was magically (or miraculously) impregnated by God? If so, what does this make Jesus?

A) A demigod Son of God
B) A direct incarnation of God himself in some form?
C) Other. Please explain.

2. Do you accept John 3:16?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

3. Do you accept John 3:18?

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

4. How do you interpret John 10:30?

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

5. How do you interpret John 8:58?

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

6. How do you interpret John 5:22?

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son

7. Finally, who judges you? Jesus or the Father God?

This seems like a great opportunity here for you to explain precisely what Christianity and Christ mean to you. And how you view Christ and Christianity.

If you're truly interested in apologetics why evade the questions?

[William]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

How much influence does that Christian culture have on whether a given individual raised in this culture believes or professes that "Jesus is God"?

Call it brainwashing (at worst) or call it indocrination, or call it influence at best, how much of a factor is culture in determining whether someone assents to the notion that "Jesus is God" even if in absence of deep thoughtful consideration?

We can of course turn to science to glean the answer to these questions, and in that the answer is that we are all heavily influenced, and not just in regard to religious indoctrination.

That is the nature of the beast.

The dissenting, skeptical individuals are those who push the boundaries of their indoctrination in order to explore other possibilities - including other cultural indoctrination - and the best application of the knowledge the individual can allow is that these altogether 'paint a picture' which gives said individual another point of view outside cultural indoctrination...and perhaps that too is a form of indoctrination, albeit one which removes cultural boundaries, so is at least a step in a better direction.

The nature of the beast can changeyes?

I think so. I even used to pray so. Maybe I still do, only not in a way some cultures might recognize as "prayer".

From a poem I named "[font=Comic Sans MS]The Silence[/font]", I wrote years ago.

[font=Comic Sans MS]Peace! We are invited to the feast! Inside my heart delights at the action I must take!
Lest I forget the taming of the beast within...lest I forget the heart that aches! [/font]