Problems with the Problem of Pain

[liamconnor]

The supposal of an omnipotent, omniscient and good God is often attacked on the grounds of the presence of pain in the world. Such attacks paint the world as experienced so terrible, that one wonders why there are not more suicides: like 99% of humanity!

Yet every talk I have ever had with any atheist has revealed a relish in living.

It is as if there is just enough pain the world to reject theism; but not enough to go out and truly have a good time with friends over a pint of beer.

How do we reconcile the painting of reality made by atheists (who use the argument of the problem of evil: not all do) and the lives they live? Is this philosophical hypocrisy? Is it hypocritical to denounce a good god on the grounds that people are starving in Somalia while typing on a laptop and eating a burger from Wendy's?

(I suppose I should add that any atheist who adds his bit obviously acknowledges his or her access to a computer! and the internet! to the health and education that enables him or her to engage in this debate!)

[Bust Nak]

That doesn’t seem to be true. Theists don’t usually blame God...

Sure, they don't usually do that, but that doesn't mean it's not the case that only theists do that. Trivial example: There are 5 boys and 5 girls. Of the 5 boys, 1 has red hair, and none of 5 girls have red hair. In this limited group, boys usually do not have red hair, but only boys have red hair.

In Biblical point of view, there is not problem of evil. People wanted to know evil and therefore we are in this first death to learn what evil and good really means.

That's a problem right there - that people needed to learn what evil and good really means. A perfect creation would know already, it's self contradictory and hence impossible.

Evil is problem only in atheistic point of view, because for atheist, flesh is only thing. And in that point of view I can understand the problem, atheist has nothing else and because it is not meant that this lesson lasts forever, there is not much hope for atheist.

How is this a problem and not a feature?

[Bust Nak]

"Effective parenting" applies just as much to God as to us. More so, really; the Creator/created relationship is infinitely more profound. I most wholeheartedly agree with you that the journey is just as important as the destination. More so, really, because then the destination is appreciated all the more. That's how God made it to be.

If appreciation for the destination was the point behind why the journey is important, then your goal can be summed up as "being at the destination PLUS appreciation for the destination." Simply envoke omnipotence and zap us to the destination, and zap appreciation into our minds, this way we can skip the jounary and achieve the exact same result. You get the SAME result minus the pain and suffering of the jounary, hence the problem of pain.

[PinSeeker]

Well, again, I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything. My job is only to relate God's truth.

So then you are openly confessing that you are not on this debate site to debate, but rather you are only here to preach?

Well I wouldn't agree to that, but you can call it what you want. If somebody misstates or misrepresents anything God has clearly said, I'm going to correct that. Or at least, represent it correctly. Again, you can call it what you want, for sure, but I'm just saying that from my perspective, there is no argument or debate.

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 9 by PinSeeker]

Or (6) -- which is the case --that He allows evil/suffering because it serves His purposes, which are far greater and far higher than we can imagine.

Why call this creature good? Isn't this just a description of an evil creature, one who is committing evil acts (or allowing evil acts to happen when he could stop it)? Number 6 here can be applied to literally any creature or person one might describe as evil, and gives them the exact same pass on the morality check as you give your god.

Nah. Nobody, not even God, gets a "pass." It's not hard to discern the purposes of fellow human beings like us. But God is infinite, and His thoughts and ways are far higher than ours. As David sings about God in Psalm 139:

• "(s)uch knowledge is too wonderful for (us); it is too high, (we) cannot attain to it."

And Paul, in Romans 11, puts it this way:

• "Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who became His counselor? Or who has first given to Him that it might be paid back to Him again? For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things."

In fact let me ask you a question: you say the purposes are far greater, far higher than we can imagine (we, being humans I can presume). Are we humans morally bound, as in is it moral, to follow the plans/purposes of a being whose purposes you say you can't even imagine or understand?

I wouldn't call it a matter of "morality." I would call it a matter of love. and, closely following, selflessness and trust. Do we love Him? And if we think we do, then do we believe Him and thus trust Him -- take Him at His word -- when He says He is working all things together for our good?

[PinSeeker]

If appreciation for the destination was the point behind why the journey is important, then your goal can be summed up as "being at the destination PLUS appreciation for the destination." Simply envoke omnipotence and zap us to the destination, and zap appreciation into our minds, this way we can skip the journey and achieve the exact same result. You get the SAME result minus the pain and suffering of the jounary, hence the problem of pain.

I wouldn't say appreciation for the destination was/is "the point" behind why the journey was important, so this line of reasoning falls apart, in my opinion. It's just the appreciation is infinitely enhanced. Part of the joy in and appreciation for the destination is the joy in the journey itself -- which may or may not be so evident as we are in the journey, but will eventually be. Surely you can imagine that... doing something that you had to work really hard for, shedding a lot of blood, sweat, and tears for, but eventually reaching the goal and being glad for what you endured to attain it. So it is possible to "consider it joy," as James says:

• "Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing."

The writer of Hebrews says it well (chapter 12):

• "...since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart... It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness. All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness. "

I'm not a big country music fan, but it kind of reminds me of The Dance, by Garth Brooks:

• "And now, I'm glad I didn't know The way it all would end, the way it all would go... I could have missed the pain, but I'd have had to miss the dance..."

You're apparently just an immediate gratification guy. That's a big problem in the world these days...

[Bust Nak]

I wouldn't say appreciation for the destination was/is "the point" behind why the journey was important...

Well you did point out the journey make the destination is appreciated all the more. But whatever "the point" is for why the journey was important, apply the same kind of reasoning. Omnipotence can just zap whatever benefit that results from a journey into existence, without any of the harm assocated with the journey. As such any and all harm suffered through the journey is gratuitous pain. A god that allows gratuitous pain is not good. Hence the problem of pain/evil.

Surely you can imagine that... doing something that you had to work really hard for, shedding a lot of blood, sweat, and tears for, but eventually reaching the goal and being glad for what you endured to attain it...

Right, but only because effortlessly zapping that thing into existence isn't within my power.

You're apparently just an immediate gratification guy. That's a big problem in the world these days...

I am not so much an immediate gratification guy but an avoid gratuitous pain guy.

[1213]

That's a problem right there - that people needed to learn what evil and good really means. A perfect creation would know already, it's self contradictory and hence impossible.

People didn’t need to learn evil. They wanted to learn it the hard way. People could have asked all things directly from God, but no, they rather wanted to become like God and that led us to this first death, where all kind of evil things can be experienced without them destroying our soul.

[Divine Insight]

That's a problem right there - that people needed to learn what evil and good really means. A perfect creation would know already, it's self contradictory and hence impossible.

People didn’t need to learn evil. They wanted to learn it the hard way. People could have asked all things directly from God, but no, they rather wanted to become like God and that led us to this first death, where all kind of evil things can be experienced without them destroying our soul.

Do you want to become like God?

If not, then why believe in an ancient collection of fables that is focused on people who supposedly do?

And if you do want to become like God, then you are so radically different from me that there really wouldn't be much point in us discussing much of anything.

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 54 by PinSeeker]

Nobody, not even God, gets a "pass." It's not hard to discern the purposes of fellow human beings like us. But God is infinite, and His thoughts and ways are far higher than ours.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 57 by 1213]

People didn’t need to learn evil. They wanted to learn it the hard way. People could have asked all things directly from God, but no, they rather wanted to become like God and that led us to this first death, where all kind of evil things can be experienced without them destroying our soul.

There is absolutely no justification for making claims like this.