Why Does God Suffer Satan?

[RedEye]

Many Christians will say that Satan is actively messing in the affairs of humankind, leading people away from the path of righteousness and seducing them into sin and immoral behaviour.

I have often wondered why God allows this. Some say that it is all part of God's plan and that there will be a final reckoning sometime in the future where Satan is defeated. The problem is that an omnipotent God does not need tactics or a battle plan. Plans are only required if you have a difficult opponent who you cannot overpower easily. God does not have that issue. He has the ultimate superpower. He can just will Satan out of existence. No devious scheme is required when you are omnipotent.

So the questions are these. Why doesn't God just get it over and done with and zap Satan into oblivion? Does God have a purpose in having Satan around to seduce God's children into wickedness? What could that purpose be? (No "God works in mysterious ways" responses please).

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by RedEye]

God didn't destroy Satan immediately because he (Satan) raised some issues that had to be settled for the well being of all concerned.

If Satan does indeed meddle in the affairs of men and causes some of the faithful to fall away from God, then taking him out would be indisputably better for their well-being. (The others who aren't swayed by Satan are unaffected, I agree). I fail to understand your objection.

If there are matters to be settled, God could settle then any time he chose simply by willing whatever was required to happen. I don't see why a passage of time is needed or why it would change anything.

I have nothing to add to my comment at the present time. Evidently you neither read the links provided nor did you watch the video. That's fine it was supplementary information for those that want really to understand.


Have a most excellent day and enjoy the rest of your thread,


J W


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What are the reasons God has allowed suffering for so long?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 475#939475

[The Tanager]

Then what need of Satan?

Why do you think the Bible teaches that God needs Satan? It seems to me that Satan was created with free will and exercises it in opposition to God.

I'm not sure how you arrive at that conclusion. Doesn't Satan interfere with our free will by tempting us into sin?

How is trying to influence someone interfering with their free will?

I disagree. According to the Bible, God repeatedly interfered with human free will. Didn't he flood the whole Earth to wipe out almost all of humanity (and innocent animals) because he didn't like the level of wickedness in the world? There was no patience shown there. You are making assertions about God which are directly contradicted by your own holy book.

Help me to see why you think the flood interferes with a human's free will. And help me to see why you think patience was not shown. I don't get that from the account in Genesis.

[RedEye]

[Replying to post 1 by RedEye]

God didn't destroy Satan immediately because he (Satan) raised some issues that had to be settled for the well being of all concerned.

If Satan does indeed meddle in the affairs of men and causes some of the faithful to fall away from God, then taking him out would be indisputably better for their well-being. (The others who aren't swayed by Satan are unaffected, I agree). I fail to understand your objection.

If there are matters to be settled, God could settle then any time he chose simply by willing whatever was required to happen. I don't see why a passage of time is needed or why it would change anything.

I have nothing to add to my comment at the present time. Evidently you neither read the links provided nor did you watch the video. That's fine it was supplementary information for those that want really to understand.

Have a most excellent day and enjoy the rest of your thread.

Well, I have tried to understand and I have explained my objections. If you choose to not engage further then that is entirely your decision. G'day to you too.

[RedEye]

Then what need of Satan?

Why do you think the Bible teaches that God needs Satan? It seems to me that Satan was created with free will and exercises it in opposition to God.

You misunderstand me. Why does Satan exist at all then?

I'm not sure how you arrive at that conclusion. Doesn't Satan interfere with our free will by tempting us into sin?

How is trying to influence someone interfering with their free will?

I think you might need to define what you mean by "free will". If someone or something influences you to do something you would not otherwise have done, isn't that the very definition of interference with free will?

I disagree. According to the Bible, God repeatedly interfered with human free will. Didn't he flood the whole Earth to wipe out almost all of humanity (and innocent animals) because he didn't like the level of wickedness in the world? There was no patience shown there. You are making assertions about God which are directly contradicted by your own holy book.

Help me to see why you think the flood interferes with a human's free will. And help me to see why you think patience was not shown. I don't get that from the account in Genesis.

So killing someone does not interfere with their free will? Really? I would be interested to get an example from you on what constitutes interfering in human free will. Please provide one.

Wreaking death and destruction on the entire planet does not demonstrate patience in my book. It demonstrates the exact opposite, an extreme and impatient overreaction. Perhaps that is just me and we have different definitions of what patience means.

[The Tanager]

You misunderstand me. Why does Satan exist at all then?

My thoughts are that Satan was brought into existence, like all creatures, to glorify God and share in His love. Satan, through free will, chose a different path than that. God, because He is perfectly loving, does not go back on that and turn beings into robots. Angels were created immortal, at least until the 'end of time' and, therefore, Satan still currently exists.

I think you might need to define what you mean by "free will". If someone or something influences you to do something you would not otherwise have done, isn't that the very definition of interference with free will?

I use 'free will' to mean something like 'the ability to choose between alternative possibilities undetermined by factors outside of the will.'

For example, we are at the ice cream shop. You love, say, mint chocolate chip ice cream, and you go into our outing thinking you will get that ice cream (if they have it, of course). They do. But I say "you really ought to try this blueberry cream pie ice cream, because it is amazing and I don't know of other places where it is made or is anywhere near this good." I'm influencing you to change your will on the matter. But you have a right to refuse that and still get mint chocolate chip. I'm not determining your action by my influence. I haven't interfered with your free will. I've given your free will another good alternative to choose from.

So killing someone does not interfere with their free will? Really? I would be interested to get an example from you on what constitutes interfering in human free will. Please provide one.

It's not your will that is being interfered with there, it's your human nature. You can want to live forever (in that sense), but the act of being immortal is not actually open to you just because you want it to be. That is a limitation on our nature, not our will.

Back to the ice cream shop. Interfering with your will would be me not just suggesting you to glory in the taste of the blueberry cream pie ice cream, but actually having access to your will and forcing you to want it. If your will was 'give me mint chocolate chip,' interfering with your will would mean me replacing that with 'give me blueberry cream pie ice cream.'

Wreaking death and destruction on the entire planet does not demonstrate patience in my book. It demonstrates the exact opposite, an extreme and impatient overreaction. Perhaps that is just me and we have different definitions of what patience means.

We may very well have different definitions of patience, but I'm not sure you don't have different definitions by yourself. You started out arguing that God should get rid of evil immediately. Now, you interpret the Flood story as God doing just that and fault Him for that.

If we are going off of the text itself the Flood story does not say that people all of the sudden started doing evil and God immediately decides to flood them out. God's judgment of the wickedness has followed at least 1500 years according to the context itself. If the earth really was as wicked as the text claims it was becoming, why do you think a good God would just allow the extreme evil to continue for still longer? It seems to me that there is a tipping point. At point A, B, C, etc. it is more loving to allow humans to continue to exist in spite of their evils, but there comes a point Z that it is just too much wickedness. At that point God brings His judgment. The Bible talks about God doing this at the Flood. It shares a similar process occuring with the Promised Land.

[ttruscott]

The problem is that an omnipotent God does not need tactics or a battle plan. Plans are only required if you have a difficult opponent who you cannot overpower easily.

How much power does it take to forgive someone?
How much power does it take to convince someone they are guilty of evil so they need to repent?

I fail to see the relevance of these questions to anything I wrote.

My point is that your reference to HIS omnipotence has no bearing upon your questions. HE cannot solve all problems by an application of power. Power is NOT the ability to do anything; power is the ability to do with power anything power can do. HIS power does not negate HIS need and ability to plan in the least.

[1213]

None of that really answers my questions. You seem to be suggesting that Satan is God's tool for teaching humans a lesson. Yet most humans who have ever lived have died. You can't learn a lesson once you are dead. That makes no sense at all.

I dont claim people learn the lesson when they have died. People can learn the lesson while the live on earth. And for that lesson, anything we experience, can be useful.

I wouldnt say Satan is Gods tool for teaching. I think Satan is just one example of person who chose evil rather than good and some people can learn from that not to choose evil.

. This practice is frowned upon by the law for very good reason, ie. because it is immoral to induce someone to do something they might not otherwise have done. The same thing applies with Satan (God's agent by your admission) who seduces otherwise good people into wickedness. It doesn't paint a very flattering image of your God.

I think God doesnt induce anyone to do bad things.

[ttruscott]

The elect are the people who were promised heaven by GOD when they chose to accept HIM as their GOD. Some of them then chose to rebel against HIS call for the judgement (ie, the use of omnipotent power to banish them to the outer darkness) all those who refused accept HIM as GOD, Satan et al.

Ditto.

My, my...how impetuous...this intro added the important info that what you ask for, that GOD use HIS omnipotence to eradicate Satan, is indeed going to happen and the rest of the post tells why it has been postponed and under what circumstances it will happen.

[ttruscott]

When HIS elect became evil by their free will choice, the judgment against Satan had to be postponed or the sinful elect would have been damned at that time too. This is explained in Matt 13:27 The owners servants came to him and said, Sir, didnt you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from? 28An enemy did this, he replied. The servants asked him, Do you want us to go and pull them up / send them to hell? 29No, he answered, because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest.

Are you suggesting that an omnipotent God is incapable of targeting Satan only?

Again with the omnipotence as if power can fix everything...



Me?? Don't you see that I am quoting the Bible and IT suggests that when the judgement against sin is called then every sinner will be targeted by that call. I do not quote verses that do not advance my meaning... This is a new concept for you?

The time of the harvest is when the seeds are ripe and mature and the only maturity that saves a sinner from hell is to be perfectly holy.

Again, I don't see the relevance to anything I wrote.

<sigh>, just saying that there is an end to the postponement of the judgement of Satan and his sent out ones, explaining the characteristic of the time when he will be judged.

Not really. You seek to tie the removal of Satan from the picture to this vague "sinful elect" (I'm not sure who exactly you refer to since dead people are not capable of repentance). I have no idea what the two have to do with each other.

If you have studied the Bible it might be that you got a cult interpretation of meaning... there are indeed people on earth under GOD's promise of election who are sinful, a doctrine that is well established.

As far as dead people go, dead means to be separated: separated from one's body or separated from one's GOD. Neither means the extinction of the person. But since I do not refer to any dead person of either description as repenting, I do not follow your meaning or inference.

[ttruscott]

You seem to be suggesting that Satan is God's tool for teaching humans a lesson. Yet most humans who have ever lived have died. You can't learn a lesson once you are dead. That makes no sense at all.

Yes, while I do indeed agree with much of this post that GOD did not create evil or Satan for its lesson value, misunderstandings do indeed breed nonsense.

PCE Theology contends that GOD did not create Satan evil as a lesson to man. Satan created himself as evil by his free will rebellion to GOD. The parable I previously quoted says that the Satanic tares and the good (ie elect) seed must live together. Logic suggests that this is to help ameliorate the stubbornness of the sinful elect against repentance.

So yes, Satan and his angels (sent out ones) are indeed used by GOD to teach the sinful elect the true nature of evil and the absolute necessity of the banishment of the eternally evil ones to the outer darkness.

Since death is the wages for sin and only sinners are born on earth, yes, every human dies but those who can benefit from the lessons set up by GOD, including the lessons of chastisement for sin, Heb 12:5-11, have probably learned them all prior to death but since no one dies in the way you seem to mean, ie, no one is extinguished as a person, these sinful elect who go back to GOD in heaven on their death may just have a few things to learn during their life there in heaven without upsetting any theological apple carts.