Fundamental Fallacies

[StuartJ]

Christians typically dodge giving direct honest answers to three fundamental questions:

1) Can Jehovah, or Jesus, or the Holy Ghost be shown to exist anywhere other than in their imaginations ...?

2) Can a single verse of "scripture" be shown to have come from Jehovah, or Jesus, or the Holy Ghost ...?

3) Can the Jesus character be shown to have been sired by either Jehovah or the Holy Ghost on a human virgin ...?

Question for debate: Why do Christians still believe - or pretend to believe - these things ...?

[Jagella]

Well you'd have to show it is built on lies, or mistakes (even if just reasonably shown).. I mean i am really, honestly, seeking to get a good explanation for Christianity from anyone. I think we should be critical on the matter... Did the Disciples mistake Jesus as the Messiah? Did they lie about its fulfillment? How so? In what ways? How do you make sense of the evidence?

Great! We're getting somewhere. Let's address the possibility that the New-Testament writers lied. Now, please consider the following claim I'm making:

Tart, my late father just rose from his grave, and he is sitting next to me eating fish watching as I compose my latest post to you.

OK--do you believe for a moment that I'm telling the truth? No, you know that I'm lying about my resurrected Dad sitting here. The reason you know I'm lying is because you know from your whole life's experience that people who are dead stay dead. That's why you'd scoff at any claim of a resurrection...
...except for the claim of Jesus being raised from the dead!

But the evidence is the same in all instances of claims of resurrections. People might say they see a dead person living again, but all they have is their word. There are no dead people living again ever presented. Elvis is never presented living again, and Jesus is never presented living again. But you scoff at Elvis sightings and are quick to believe that the dead Jesus was seen living again.

Really, you and I think much the same. We apply the same logic arriving at the same conclusions based on the same premises. We both know that claims of my Dad or Elvis living again are lies or at least mistakes. We only differ on Christian truth claims. That's where I continue to use the same logic consistently while you derail your logic to believe what you want to believe about a myth that comforts you.

[ttruscott]

Question for debate: Why do Christians still believe - or pretend to believe - these things ...?

Do you not persist in your belief there IS NO GOD even though that has never been proven?

You use the English word believe but it is the wrong word as it has the wrong meaning for this topic...ie, it is a lazy word, easy to say, hard to define. Better is the word FAITH, to have an unproven hope in something (Bible definition) and/or to trust.

Do you save money for a holiday or to pay for your child's education? Then you are acting on an unproven hope that you will get the holiday or your child will get to college. Faith is an everyday occurrence among secular and religious alike. Secularists buy lotto tickets knowing the odds against them are stupendous yet they will not listen to the gospel nor put any hope in Christ to save them from the natural consequences and legal consequences of their sins.

A Christian's hope in Christ is based upon the evidence (not proof) of:
- the Bible, including especially the life of Christ
- the witness of millions as to Christ's reality
- the indwelling witness of the Holy Spirit in our lives
- the change of character and motivation in the lives of converts making them better citizens
- for many, the fact of answered prayer brings them to faith.

[Jagella]

Do you not persist in your belief there IS NO GOD even though that has never been proven?

Most atheists don't believe there are no gods. Do you believe there is no Bigfoot? Atheists lack belief in gods.

Do you save money for a holiday or to pay for your child's education? Then you are acting on an unproven hope that you will get the holiday or your child will get to college.

That's not faith but reason. Reason tells us that if we save money, then we might be able to pay for a child's education.

Secularists buy lotto tickets knowing the odds against them are stupendous yet they will not listen to the gospel nor put any hope in Christ to save them from the natural consequences and legal consequences of their sins.

Personally, I never buy lottery tickets. But reason tells me that my chances are better to win the lottery than to get to the Christian heaven. I know people win lotteries, but I don't know of anybody ever making it to heaven.

So I think that's one key difference between reason and faith. Reason is based on what you know while faith is based on unknowns.

A Christian's hope in Christ is based upon the evidence (not proof) of:
- the Bible, including especially the life of Christ

Yes, Christians have a book and so do Muslims and Hindus.

the witness of millions as to Christ's reality

All religions have their "witnesses."

the indwelling witness of the Holy Spirit in our lives

Well, that's what is claimed. I wonder how all those Christians who commit crimes affect their "holy spirits" when they commit crimes.

the change of character and motivation in the lives of converts making them better citizens

I personally have never seen anybody get better when they became Christians. I have seen people get worse, though.

for many, the fact of answered prayer brings them to faith.

Let's see the proof for that!

[StuartJ]

[Replying to post 12 by ttruscott]

We Atheists generally do not believe or say "there is no God".

This has been repeated numerous times.

I suggest you have heard it numerous times.

Let me repeat it for you so you are clear ...

ATHEISTS GENERALLY DO NOT BELIEVE OR SAY THERE IS NO GOD

I have found that people in faith communities will dishonestly claim that Atheists say there is no God, despite us telling them repeatedly that this is untrue.

I am of the opinion that this dishonesty is to try and drag us down to their level of absence of evidence.

People of faith are constantly demanding that we Atheists prove this, or prove that.

Please prove any one of the three fallacies in the OP ...

... and this debate evaporates.

I challenge you to honestly and openly admit if you cannot.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 3 by Tart]

1) yes... As i didnt create Jesus, Jehovah, or the Holy Ghost in my imagination, and it also doesn't reside in my imagination alone.... That is just a fact.

1) yes... As i didnt create Santa, the Easter Bunny, or the Great Pumpkin in my imagination, and it also doesn't reside in my imagination alone.... That is just a fact.

Well proven. I am sorry I doubted.

[Replying to post 1 by StuartJ]

3) Can the Jesus character be shown to have been sired by either Jehovah or the Holy Ghost on a human virgin ...?

The Torah and Celsus both claim Jesus was the son of a Tiberius Panthera.
So, we COULD believe that Jesus was born of the union of some all powerful alien, of was born of the union of a Roman soldier and a girl.

Is there anyone in their right mind that could believe two separate species can have a baby like that? I don't think God is even in the same Phylum.

[bjs]

[Replying to StuartJ]


Im not sure if you get to speak for all atheists here. The definition of classical atheism is the belief that there is no God. The most intelligent atheist philosophers (Sartre, Bentham, Nietzsche, Marx, etc.) defined atheism that way.

At any rate, there seems to be a valid objection here. If you are going to challenge others to openly and honestly admit an inability to prove their worldview, will you do the same? Can you show a materialistic worldview to be true? Or will you openly and honestly admit that you have nothing better to offer than a Christians who believes in God purely by faith?






As for the three questions of the opening post, the first one is: Can Jehovah, or Jesus, or the Holy Ghost be shown to exist anywhere other than in their imaginations

The answer is most certainly Yes. Jesus was a historical figure. He was an itinerant preacher whose life and teachings formed the foundation of Christianity. All other explanation require complicated conspiracy theories to explain the rise of Christianity. Regardless of the existence of God, the simplest and most reasonable explanation of the evidence is that Jesus was a human being who existed in the real world, which is somewhere other than the imagination.

[StuartJ]

[Replying to post 16 by bjs]

The answer is most certainly Yes. Jesus was a historical figure.

This has been well and truly covered in recent topics.

The very best that can be established for an historical Jesus is "highly likely" ...

... which leaves the door wide open for "not at all".

Significantly ...

... you failed to mention Magic Jesus

Or Jehovah

Or the Holy Ghost.

But the question wasn't DID they exist ...

... but DO they exist anywhere other than in your imagination ...?

[StuartJ]

[Replying to post 16 by bjs]

2) Can a single verse of "scripture" be shown to have come from Jehovah, or Jesus, or the Holy Ghost ...?

You failed to address this ...

[StuartJ]

[Replying to post 16 by bjs]

3) Can the Jesus character be shown to have been sired by either Jehovah or the Holy Ghost on a human virgin ...?

AND you failed to address this ....

[StuartJ]

[Replying to post 16 by bjs]

Im not sure if you get to speak for all atheists here. The definition of classical atheism is the belief that there is no God.

You failed to address the questions.

You are WAY off topic with this.

I am more than happy to have a separate thread on this if want to persist with a false claim about Atheists.

Please address the topics raised ...

... or admit there is not a shred of anything approaching evidence for the points I've raised ...

... or demonstrate any evidence for them of your choosing.

Then the debate will be over.