In Matthew 7:21-23, the Bible claims that Jesus will say to the people in the last day that he 'never knew them' in regards to people who are false followers of Christ.
My question is, how is that so?
According to Christians, Jesus is supposedly God, yet God will not know who he speaks to on the last day?
Psalms is littered with scripture mentioning that God knows all things in man and his heart(Psalm 44:21, 94:11, etc). Even in Luke 12:7, it mentions that God knows the exact number of hairs on all our heads.
So how is it that on the last day God will say he 'never knew you' when it clearly shows that he does?
Perhaps this just proves that Jesus is not God at all? Perhaps Jesus was just a servant sent only as flesh?
Jesus will say, "I never knew you."
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Re: Jesus will say, "I never knew you."
Post #2[Replying to inthevoid]
The very clear implication of Jesus words in Matthew 7 was that the person who he was speaking to, the person who called Jesus “Lord,� was not a subject of Jesus.
Jesus was not saying that he literally did not know who the person was. Rather, the person was not in a genuine relationship with Jesus which make would make calling Jesus “Lord� and honest statement.
I have to ask: Did you genuinely read this passage and think, “Huh. Jesus literally does not know who that person is�? It seems likely such a wildly unnatural reading of the passage that I am have a hard time wrapping my mind around how someone could get there. Can you explain your thought process a little more?
The very clear implication of Jesus words in Matthew 7 was that the person who he was speaking to, the person who called Jesus “Lord,� was not a subject of Jesus.
Jesus was not saying that he literally did not know who the person was. Rather, the person was not in a genuine relationship with Jesus which make would make calling Jesus “Lord� and honest statement.
I have to ask: Did you genuinely read this passage and think, “Huh. Jesus literally does not know who that person is�? It seems likely such a wildly unnatural reading of the passage that I am have a hard time wrapping my mind around how someone could get there. Can you explain your thought process a little more?
Understand that you might believe. Believe that you might understand. –Augustine of Hippo
Re: Jesus will say, "I never knew you."
Post #3But in Matthew 7:21-23, as I've shown, Jesus does say literally that he 'never knew the person'. I think you should be sincere before calling me out on it.bjs wrote: [Replying to inthevoid]
Jesus was not saying that he literally did not know who the person was. Rather, the person was not in a genuine relationship with Jesus which make would make calling Jesus “Lord� and honest statement.
So since he literally said that to another soul, that either means Jesus was lying to that person or that Jesus is not God.
Re: Jesus will say, "I never knew you."
Post #4[Replying to inthevoid]
If you mean those are the literally the words that are recorded in Matthew, then yes that is true.
If you mean that Jesus said he literally did not know that person, then no this is not accurate.
I am being entirely sincere. I do not understand how you have reached the conclusion that Jesus was saying that he literally did not know the people. In the context of the passage there is little doubt that Jesus was describing people who were not his followers, not that they were unknown to him.
To suggest that Jesus was saying he literally would not know the people is such an unnatural reading of the passage I sincerely do not understand how any reasonable person could come to that conclusion.
If you mean those are the literally the words that are recorded in Matthew, then yes that is true.
If you mean that Jesus said he literally did not know that person, then no this is not accurate.
I am being entirely sincere. I do not understand how you have reached the conclusion that Jesus was saying that he literally did not know the people. In the context of the passage there is little doubt that Jesus was describing people who were not his followers, not that they were unknown to him.
To suggest that Jesus was saying he literally would not know the people is such an unnatural reading of the passage I sincerely do not understand how any reasonable person could come to that conclusion.
Understand that you might believe. Believe that you might understand. –Augustine of Hippo
Re: Jesus will say, "I never knew you."
Post #5So then why is this still a debate? We're supposed to use the scriptures, no?bjs wrote: [Replying to inthevoid]
If you mean those are the literally the words that are recorded in Matthew, then yes that is true.
bjs wrote: [Replying to inthevoid]
If you mean that Jesus said he literally did not know that person, then no this is not accurate.
Could you provide scripture to prove your point? I provided mine.
I have come to this conclusion because that is all that is recorded in the Bible regarding what Jesus will say to those who claim to know him on the last day. So I am using the scripture. I am not using my own understanding but the words of the Bible to make the judgment call.bjs wrote: [Replying to inthevoid]
To suggest that Jesus was saying he literally would not know the people is such an unnatural reading of the passage I sincerely do not understand how any reasonable person could come to that conclusion.
To those who add will receive more fire, and those who take away the words of God will be deleted from the Book of Life, no?
It is there plainly stated in scripture, literally. Please bring scripture to counter what Jesus said.
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William
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Re: Jesus will say, "I never knew you."
Post #6[Replying to post 1 by inthevoid]
Part of the answer to your question I have been writing about in the thread; "Why did God choose the Jews?"~
post #3
post #18
post #33
post #44
...where I speak to GOD choosing those who chose GOD. It is a kind of mirroring affect and is understandable in the same context as like attracts like/ we can chose our friends but not our family.
From the other perspective another story attributed to Jesus is the one where he speaks to those types who did not know him but are considered by him to be known by him as his supporters.
Part of the answer to your question I have been writing about in the thread; "Why did God choose the Jews?"~
post #3
post #18
post #33
post #44
...where I speak to GOD choosing those who chose GOD. It is a kind of mirroring affect and is understandable in the same context as like attracts like/ we can chose our friends but not our family.
From the other perspective another story attributed to Jesus is the one where he speaks to those types who did not know him but are considered by him to be known by him as his supporters.
Re: Jesus will say, "I never knew you."
Post #7[Replying to inthevoid]
As a reply to the original post.
I think this verse illustrates that having a personal relationship with Christ is what matters... For example, say a husband and a wife got married, live maybe 10 years together, and grew apart... This could be an example of this kind of relationship... Where maybe the wife could say to her husband "i dont even know you anymore"... Does she literally not know her husband? Of course not, she knows her husband, she could know nearly everything about her husband and still say a comment like that, and we could interpret it as a valid statement.. We would know she is talking about an intimate relationship. I think we all agree that this language could be used to be applied to an intimate relationship... All of us have probably seen these kinds of expressions...
I think a fundamental flaw in interpretation is holding the Bible to a unrealistic standard... Usually we see this in non-believers trying to find error in scripture...
For example, there is a part of the Bible that says a circumference of a lake is measured at 3 units, while the diameter is measured at 1 unit... Critics complain that this wouldnt be an accurate calculation of Pi (3.14...).. This would put Pi at 3...
This kind of Biblical criticism is just unreasonable, its irrational... For instance, Pi is 3 when rounded, and we all round Pi to some number (its infinite).. Every time you have EVER seen an expression of Pi, it has been rounded to some number, and saying it is 3 is a just as valid as any other expression... That is its primary unit... Or another example would be that there could just be a little variation in a natural setting... The lake could be just a little off of a perfect circle...
At any rate, i think this is just an example of Biblical liberalism takin to the extreme
As a reply to the original post.
I think this verse illustrates that having a personal relationship with Christ is what matters... For example, say a husband and a wife got married, live maybe 10 years together, and grew apart... This could be an example of this kind of relationship... Where maybe the wife could say to her husband "i dont even know you anymore"... Does she literally not know her husband? Of course not, she knows her husband, she could know nearly everything about her husband and still say a comment like that, and we could interpret it as a valid statement.. We would know she is talking about an intimate relationship. I think we all agree that this language could be used to be applied to an intimate relationship... All of us have probably seen these kinds of expressions...
I think a fundamental flaw in interpretation is holding the Bible to a unrealistic standard... Usually we see this in non-believers trying to find error in scripture...
For example, there is a part of the Bible that says a circumference of a lake is measured at 3 units, while the diameter is measured at 1 unit... Critics complain that this wouldnt be an accurate calculation of Pi (3.14...).. This would put Pi at 3...
This kind of Biblical criticism is just unreasonable, its irrational... For instance, Pi is 3 when rounded, and we all round Pi to some number (its infinite).. Every time you have EVER seen an expression of Pi, it has been rounded to some number, and saying it is 3 is a just as valid as any other expression... That is its primary unit... Or another example would be that there could just be a little variation in a natural setting... The lake could be just a little off of a perfect circle...
At any rate, i think this is just an example of Biblical liberalism takin to the extreme
Last edited by Tart on Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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tam
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Post #8
Peace to you,
In response to bjs, you (the OP) asked,
But [Jesus] did not entrust Himself to them, for He knew all men. He did not need any testimony about man, for He knew what was in a man. John 2:24, 25
When Christ says to some people "I never knew you", He is speaking of an intimate knowing; a union. They (the people from your example) call Him Lord and claim or believe that they are in Him (and Him in them); but they are not; He never knew them.
Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
In response to bjs, you (the OP) asked,
This does not mean that Christ is God (YHWH), but here is one such scripture:Could you provide scripture to prove your point? I provided mine.
But [Jesus] did not entrust Himself to them, for He knew all men. He did not need any testimony about man, for He knew what was in a man. John 2:24, 25
When Christ says to some people "I never knew you", He is speaking of an intimate knowing; a union. They (the people from your example) call Him Lord and claim or believe that they are in Him (and Him in them); but they are not; He never knew them.
Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Re: Jesus will say, "I never knew you."
Post #9[Replying to post 7 by Tart]
Very true. It could be that in marriage the couple may no longer know each other any more, but they know of their past together.
Then again, they, as we humans all are, are fallible. We do not know everything and cannot know what is in all mankind's heart as David alludes God to in Psalms.
Therefore this proves Jesus was not God, but a human being. Since God knows all man's heart and plans.
Very true. It could be that in marriage the couple may no longer know each other any more, but they know of their past together.
Then again, they, as we humans all are, are fallible. We do not know everything and cannot know what is in all mankind's heart as David alludes God to in Psalms.
Therefore this proves Jesus was not God, but a human being. Since God knows all man's heart and plans.
Re: Jesus will say, "I never knew you."
Post #10Well I edited my post i would encourage you to go read...inthevoid wrote: [Replying to post 7 by Tart]
Very true. It could be that in marriage the couple may no longer know each other any more, but they know of their past together.
Then again, they, as we humans all are, are fallible. We do not know everything and cannot know what is in all mankind's heart as David alludes God to in Psalms.
Therefore this proves Jesus was not God, but a human being. Since God knows all man's heart and plans.
I think this kind of interpretation, this extreme literalism that is usually applied to find errors in the scripture, is a bit irrational...
We ourselves could witness this kind of language from anyone... My example of the wife saying "i dont even know you anymore", we all know how to interpret that... None of us are thinking to ourselves "wow, what did she have some kind of brain fart? alzheimer's? amnesia?"... No, we would know that this language is representing something else, like an intimate relationship and not of literally "not knowing" who her husband is..
I think this interpretation is a bit irrational.. It is finding flaws in the language of the Bible, we wouldnt apply to other examples (like mine mentioned).
Last edited by Tart on Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
