Is the Bible confusing?

[amortalman]

Dan Barker, atheist activist, and author asked the question: "Can you think of any book more confusing than the Bible?"

The topic for debate:

1) Is the Bible confusing to the average person?

2) If Biblical scholars disagree on many theological points how can we know what the truth is?

[Clownboat]

Because he is supposedly full of loving kindness and compassion and "not the author of confusion" and truthful, and our "Heavenly Father" who desires "everyone to come to a knowledge of the truth," and 'not be led astray.' That's why.

I'm not sure we could ever get to certainty in anything that exists as more than just a concept. If God appeared to you right now and did the things your critique is asking Him to do, you could still think it was just a hallucination or that we are brains in a vat or whatever.

I think it is possible that this hiddenness is more out of uncontrolling love than cruelty. What is God after? Supposedly, it's not just knowledge. And it's not just good behavior. It's people willingly choosing to enter into a life-transforming loving community with God and others. It's not clear that making His non-existence unthinkable would achieve this. If you are going to use what the Bible says (like you do above), we need to be consistent in that and take note of the stories where people have God's existence being obvious and still rejecting God (like the Israelites after the Exodus).

For me, it's the mystery in, say, my wife that keeps pushing me deeper into the relationship. Or I think about a game like hide-and-seek. If I'm not searching for something, I'm going to stay right where I am at. God's hiddenness might be for a life-transforming purpose like that. If we are all going to be know-it-alls, then I'm not sure the point of life in community.

To remain consistent, once your soul gets to heaven, it would be best for that god to remain hidden, right?

[OnceConvinced]

1) Is the Bible confusing to the average person?

There are parts of the bible that are written in a very confusing manner. You'd think a god would have made sure he did a better job at having his word translated.

However, for the most of it, it's not confusing. It just depends on what perspective you take when reading it.

eg If you take the perspective that God is caring, loving and just then you can read it with those glasses on. Anything that would appear to contradict those beliefs, you can find some way around it to explain it and make sense of it.

eg
turning something into a metaphor
claiming it to be symbolic of something.
claiming the holy spirit has guided you to a different understanding.
retranslating the original texts to words that fit better with your beliefs.
Finding other scriptures you can tie in to change the meaning.

2) If Biblical scholars disagree on many theological points how can we know what the truth is?

We can't possibly know the truth because each scholar reads the bible from a slightly different perspective. You are never going to be able to get agreement due to this.

Even if a scholar claims they have the holy spirit guiding them, they still come up with something completely different to other scholars who have the holy spirit guiding them. This to me is damning evidence it's all about perspective nothing else.

[The Tanager]

amortalman wrote:
No, that is a misrepresentation of what I said. Here is what I said: "One would think the nature of an almighty God would be above even pure mathematics and able to produce a book that left no room for misunderstanding.

...

Or one could be saying exactly what I said without adding to it.

When you didn't understand my use of 'consistent' earlier it would have been unhelpful for me to say something like the above. Instead I tried to rephrase it. I want to answer your question as you mean it to be taken. I'm not sure what that is. I'm trying to understand it. Saying that you meant what you said without adding to it doesn't help me to understand it. So, I don't know that I'll be answering your question properly by this response.

I don't think it is a question of having more knowledge or power. Abstract objects (mathematical truths) are different kinds of things than concrete objects (like us or God). We can reach different levels of knowledge because of the nature of what we study is different. We live in a world where we cannot logically rule out that we (concrete objects) are brains in a vat. There is room for misunderstanding of our physical sensations. We could know more things than we currently do about our physical sensations and still not be able to logically rule out that we are brains in a vat, because that scenario, if true, exactly reproduces what we interpret as having real physical sensations. There is not a way to tell the difference decidely. Our physical nature itself leaves room for misunderstanding of anything.

[The Tanager]

It is not logical that a God would inspire the writing of a book with a message for everyone and then require Theologian to interpret and explaine the book.

I would just be repeating post 3 from bjs and my post 5 to respond to this.

Also, see Luke:
Luke 21:15 - For I wll give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict.
Whoops!

Can this verse be misrepresented by someone or is it's message clear? You are arguing the Bible is not clear, right? Therefore, just quoting the verse is not helpful. Please give your interpretation of the verse. Why has the claim in this verse been disproven, in your eyes?

To remain consistent, once your soul gets to heaven, it would be best for that god to remain hidden, right?

I do think there will still be some hiddenness.

[amortalman]

[quote="OnceConvinced"

We can't possibly know the truth because each scholar reads the bible from a slightly different perspective. You are never going to be able to get agreement due to this.

Even if a scholar claims they have the holy spirit guiding them, they still come up with something completely different to other scholars who have the holy spirit guiding them. This to me is damning evidence it's all about perspective nothing else.

I agree in as far as it goes. My point is this if God is omniscient and omnipotent as the Bible says and has the ability to speak matter into existence and create the inner world of atoms and quarks and the outer world of billions of galaxies, why can't he provide mere humans with a book that does not lend itself to thousands of interpretations? I think the Bible asks, "Is anything too difficult for God?"

[amortalman]

[Replying to post 33 by The Tanager]

All I am saying is that a reasonable person would expect that a god who is omniscient and omnipotent would be able to produce a book that does not lend itself to so many interpretations. A reasonable person would also expect that a god who loves mankind and "wants all to come to a knowledge of the truth" would indeed leave such a book. I believe the Bible asks the question, " Is anything too difficult for God?"

What we have is a book (collection of books) that is so confusing that there is no consensus on what God requires of mankind.

I hope this clears up what I meant. If not, please feel free to ask more.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 33 by The Tanager]

All I am saying is that a reasonable person would expect that a god who is omniscient and omnipotent would be able to produce a book that does not lend itself to so many interpretations.

Can you explain why you hold this belief?

[Clownboat]

It is not logical that a God would inspire the writing of a book with a message for everyone and then require Theologian to interpret and explaine the book.

I would just be repeating post 3 from bjs and my post 5 to respond to this.

I re-read your post 5 and it does not address the illogic of purposefully creating a book with a message for everyone, but then not allowing them to understand it without guidence from theologians that don't even agree with each other.
Sorry...

Also, see Luke:
Luke 21:15 - For I wll give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict.
Whoops!

Can this verse be misrepresented by someone or is it's message clear?

Depends on who you ask. Some will read the words for what they are. Others will try to put their own spin on it to try to save face or to hold on to some preconceived idea.

You are arguing the Bible is not clear, right?

Nope. 40,000 different demoninations has shown this to be true. No argument is needed.

Therefore, just quoting the verse is not helpful.

I trust its meaning has not been lost on everyone here.

Please give your interpretation of the verse.

It doesn't seem to have any authority or actual meaning, so I don't see the point.

Why has the claim in this verse been disproven, in your eyes?

I've been coming here for over 10 years. It is disproven. That or no true Christians have posted here.

To remain consistent, once your soul gets to heaven, it would be best for that god to remain hidden, right?

I do think there will still be some hiddenness.

More proof that the Luke scripture I posted is a falsehood. Once again you are incapable of answering a very specific question posed to you. Obviously there is no god providing you with words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict. Take solace in the fact that you are not alone as this seems to be consistant with all Christian believers. Therefore, the verse seems either false or it is unclear. Matters not which one IMO.

[amortalman]

[Replying to post 33 by The Tanager]

All I am saying is that a reasonable person would expect that a god who is omniscient and omnipotent would be able to produce a book that does not lend itself to so many interpretations.

Can you explain why you hold this belief?

I think the statement is self-explanatory.

I think it is a reasonable expectation from an entity who supposedly created everything from atoms to galaxies. Certainly not outside his ability.

Jesus said that with God all things are possible. (Matt. 19:26, Mark 10:27)

[Clownboat]

[Replying to post 33 by The Tanager]

All I am saying is that a reasonable person would expect that a god who is omniscient and omnipotent would be able to produce a book that does not lend itself to so many interpretations.

Can you explain why you hold this belief?

He may have his own reasons of course...
In any case. It is not logical for an all powerful god to create books with a message for everyone, but then require pastors, priests and theologians to then interpret and explain the said books.

If Jehovahs Witnesses for example were on to the real true meaning of the Bible and its god, where is the logic to allow said book to then have Catholics, Protestants, Baptists and so on all arguing for why they are right and JW's are wrong?