This Generation Will Not Pass Away:

[Overcomer]

Jesus talks about the destruction of the temple and signs of the end times in Matt. 24:1-35:

1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 Do you see all these things? he asked. Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. Tell us, they said, when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?

4 Jesus answered: Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, I am the Messiah, and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9 Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15 So when you see standing in the holy place the abomination that causes desolation,[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel"let the reader understand" 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now"and never to be equaled again.

22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, Look, here is the Messiah! or, There he is! do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

26 So if anyone tells you, There he is, out in the wilderness, do not go out; or, Here he is, in the inner rooms, do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29 Immediately after the distress of those days


the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.

30 Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32 Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Verse 34 has been the subject of many a debate. My questions are as follows:

What did Jesus mean when he said "this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened?" Who is "this generation"?

[Checkpoint]

Peace to you all,

From the Psalms (14:5, for context):


5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.




Even in the OT, generation is used to denote 'kind' instead of 'time'.

The word of course relates to type or kind. The nuisance is the demonstrative adjective "this" and it is "this" that offers us a meaning. Had he said the generation of the wicked we would have deduced a meaning. Given "this" - interpretations other than one that relates the generation to his listeners are simply incorrect, however ingeniously they are summoned up.

Yes, "this" "type or kind" of "generation".

Either "the generation of the wicked" or "the generation of the righteous".

His listeners were either one or the other, as well as being part of the physical generation that then existed.

[marco]

Yes, "this" "type or kind" of "generation".

You are double counting to make sense of the phrase; using "this" as implying "this kind of" and "generation" again to state kind of people. As I already said, it is a possibility but it is a forced possibility.

Either "the generation of the wicked" or "the generation of the righteous".

His listeners were either one or the other, as well as being part of the physical generation that then existed.

Well you'd have fared better without this addendum. If his listeners included "non-this" type, were they supposed to close their ears while Christ spoke? You've split Christ's audience into the "this type" and the "that type." We are moving into the realms of ridiculous exegesis. I didn't realise that the innocent little word "this" could be expanded into a whole theology. Goodness me.

[tam]

He was speaking only to His disciples.


As [Jesus] was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. Matthew 24:3



Peace to you!

[tam]

[Replying to post 306 by marco]

So when the last Christian disappears someone can then say Christ got it wrong. We must wait a bit longer then.

I believe the point is that this will not happen.

Peace again to you!

[Checkpoint]

Yes, "this" "type or kind" of "generation".

You are double counting to make sense of the phrase; using "this" as implying "this kind of" and "generation" again to state kind of people. As I already said, it is a possibility but it is a forced possibility.

Either "the generation of the wicked" or "the generation of the righteous".

His listeners were either one or the other, as well as being part of the physical generation that then existed.

Well you'd have fared better without this addendum. If his listeners included "non-this" type, were they supposed to close their ears while Christ spoke? You've split Christ's audience into the "this type" and the "that type." We are moving into the realms of ridiculous exegesis. I didn't realise that the innocent little word "this" could be expanded into a whole theology. Goodness me.

Goodness me indeed!

"moving into the realms of ridiculous exegesis."?

On the contrary, pointing to how the Bible sometimes uses "generation", and to the actual usage by Christ of "generation" in speaking to various audiences.

Who the audience is is secondary; what the speaker intended to convey is primary.

Not a new theology, but applying one of the basics of sound exegesis, and avoiding eisegesis.

Context, so that scripture can interpret the same scriptural words and concepts.

[marco]

He was speaking only to His disciples.


As [Jesus] was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. Matthew 24:3

If someone is speaking intimately to friends or family then one would understand "this generation" as this generation in the usual sense, rather than take it as a generalisation of the type of people he is addressing, which would be quite an odd way of talking. It's not impossible, but hugely unlikely.

[marco]

[Replying to post 306 by marco]

So when the last Christian disappears someone can then say Christ got it wrong. We must wait a bit longer then.

I believe the point is that this will not happen.

My conviction that Christ was earnest but wrong is as strong as your conviction that Christ was sent from God, and still works actively. Christianity has a shelf life, as had all the religions of the past, however devoted the followers. Islam too will die out, but might persist much longer due to its reluctance to release living followers from its tenets. Christianity once had that hold. Go well.

[marco]

Who the audience is is secondary; what the speaker intended to convey is primary.

Not a new theology, but applying one of the basics of sound exegesis, and avoiding eisegesis.

Context, so that scripture can interpret the same scriptural words and concepts.

Thanks for that timely reminder. Where generation is elsewhere employed, there may be no ambiguity in its interpretation.

I can understand why one has to seek out some abstruse interpretation for the singular purpose of preserving one's cherished beliefs. We all do it, don't we? But context means taking audience into consideration as well, and retaining the obvious unless there are strong indications we should not. If there are other passages where Christ similarly made statements about the near future and finality, then they are also relevant. Of curse they too will be explained away by some other stratagem.


I have no problem accepting Christ was an enthusiastic preacher, but deluded. A wiser speaker would have anticipated, and made himself clear beyond debate. An inspiring Spirit, too, would have used his red pen. Alas, we must believe what we read.

[polonius]

Matthew 24:36 NRSV

36 But about that day and hour no one knows, neither the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Conclusion:

Jesus is not co-equal to the Father. Therefore, the Trinity dogma is in error.

Footnotes: (from NAB)
24:36 Many textual witnesses omit nor the Son, which follows Mk 13:32. Since its omission can be explained by reluctance to attribute this ignorance to the Son, the reading that includes it is probably original.

Fundamentalists don't want to accept that scripture is often the altered product of men and not "God breathed."

[tam]

Peace to you Marco,

[Replying to post 313 by marco]

Christianity has a shelf life, as had all the religions of the past, however devoted the followers. Islam too will die out, but might persist much longer due to its reluctance to release living followers from its tenets. Christianity once had that hold. Go well.

Christianity (the religion; organized/institutionalized) does indeed have a shelf life; all religions have a shelf life. But I was not referring to the religion. Being a Christian has nothing to do with being a member of Christianity (the religion). Being a Christian (an anointed one) has to do with Christ (THE Anointed One), and HE does not have a shelf life.


In any case, we are reassured that despite the persecution that has happened in the past (such as what happened with the apostles and early disciples, including what Christ had just finished warning them was going to happen) as well as the persecution that is to come, 'this generation' will not pass away, and will still be here and be alive when all these things happen (including when He returns).




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy