Was all very good in the garden?

[ttruscott]

[JehovahsWitness]

Gen 1:31 refers to everything... which must include the evil angels of the satanic rebellion who were, at that time, being held in chains of darkness in Sheol, 2 Peter 2:4 For if GOD spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell (literally: Tartarus) and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be RESERVED unto judgement. yet everything is very good.

Can you explain why you conclude that the rebellious angels existed as described by Peter at the end of the 6th creative day?

[JehovahsWitness]

Well now, in regard to the possibility of Adam still being innocent, in 2:16 we receive witness to the effect that Adam had already accepted YHWH as his GOD (for he accepted the command to not eat the fruit of a certain tree as GOD's command) which means that he was no longer innocent.

Leaving aside the word innocent (a word which is not even mentioned in the account), are you trying to argue that Adam's obeying God and refraining from eating from the tree as God instructed was doing something God would view as wrong or reprehensible in some way?

Are you suggesting that Adam's obedience wasn't displeasing but neither was it pleasing to the Creator ("neutral")? That God is indifferent to his intelligent children's obedience?

[JehovahsWitness]

why GOD had to resort to such tactics if Adam was willing to do whatever GOD wanted him to do?

GENISIS 2: 19-20

Now Jehovah God had been forming from the ground every wild animal of the field and every flying creature of the heavens, andhe began bringing them to the man to see what he would call each one ;and whatever the man would call each living creature, that became its name. So the man named all the domestic animals and the flying creatures of the heavens and every wild animal of the field

• Could it be that God brought the animals to Adam to see what Adam would name them?
  
  Is there a possibility that God didn't HAVE to do the above but let Adam name the animals because He (Jehovah God) wanted Adam to name the animals?
  
  Is there a possibility that Almighty God the creator wasn't "resorting" to any tactics at all but was simply letting Adam name the animals ?

JW

[JehovahsWitness]

Adam had to go into a deep (but possibly conscious) sleep, and donate a bone and some flesh. And was Adam willing to comply with GOD's will for him in this? Well, he was, but only after GOD had brought him all the animals first and they had all been shown to be unsuitable:

Could you direct me to any words in the text that imply God requested Adam submit to sleep to extract a rib and that Adam refused or expressed in any way he would only be willing to submit himself to the process AFTER he was shown all the animals.


JW

[JehovahsWitness]

.either admit that Adam was ....already looking among the animals for a wife

• - Does the text state Adam was looking for a mate?
  

  
  .either... Adam was ... not very willing to listen to what GOD had to say about it

  - Is there any record of a conversation between God and Adam on the subject of a suitable mate for Adam?
  
  - Is there any record of Adam rejecting any suggestion made by God on this subject?
  

  or, admit that GOD was taking preventive measures to stop Adam from rejecting HIS helpmeet

  - Is there anything in the text where God expressed a fear Adam would reject Eve once he met her?
  
  - Is such a eventuality suggested anywhere in the text?

JW

[polonius]

Legend has it that if Adam and Eve existed, they lived around 6,000 BC.

The legend written in our Bible however, dates from about 900 to 200 BC. It's nice story and some Fundamentalists will tell us it is true. As in this thread so far.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_and_ ... al_history

Textual history
The Primeval History forms the opening chapters of the Torah, the five books making up the history of the origins of Israel. This achieved something like its current form in the 5th century BCE,[26] but Genesis 1-11 shows little relationship to the rest of the Bible:[27] for example, the names of its characters and its geography - Adam (man) and Eve (life), the Land of Nod ("Wandering"), and so on - are symbolic rather than real,[28] and almost none of the persons, places and stories mentioned in it are ever met anywhere else.[28] This has led scholars to suppose that the History forms a late composition attached to Genesis and the Pentateuch to serve as an introduction.[29] Just how late is a subject for debate: at one extreme are those who see it as a product of the Hellenistic period, in which case it cannot be earlier than the first decades of the 4th century BCE;[30] on the other hand the Yahwist source has been dated by some scholars, notably John Van Seters, to the exilic pre-Persian period (the 6th century BCE) precisely because the Primeval History contains so much Babylonian influence in the form of myth.[31][Note 1] The Primeval History draws on two distinct "sources", the Priestly source and what is sometimes called the Yahwist source and sometimes simply the "non-Priestly"; for the purpose of discussing Adam and Eve in the Book of Genesis the terms "non-Priestly" and "Yahwist" can be regarded as interchangeable.

I find it interesting that some (otherwise) rational people interpret a very old legend as factual history.

But, lets pretend.

I do so enjoy the story of the talking snake. Did he grow up to become a politician?

[Wootah]

Legend has it that if Adam and Eve existed, they lived around 6,000 BC.

The legend written in our Bible however, dates from about 900 to 200 BC. It's nice story and some Fundamentalists will tell us it is true. As in this thread so far.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_and_ ... al_history

Textual history
The Primeval History forms the opening chapters of the Torah, the five books making up the history of the origins of Israel. This achieved something like its current form in the 5th century BCE,[26] but Genesis 1-11 shows little relationship to the rest of the Bible:[27] for example, the names of its characters and its geography - Adam (man) and Eve (life), the Land of Nod ("Wandering"), and so on - are symbolic rather than real,[28] and almost none of the persons, places and stories mentioned in it are ever met anywhere else.[28] This has led scholars to suppose that the History forms a late composition attached to Genesis and the Pentateuch to serve as an introduction.[29] Just how late is a subject for debate: at one extreme are those who see it as a product of the Hellenistic period, in which case it cannot be earlier than the first decades of the 4th century BCE;[30] on the other hand the Yahwist source has been dated by some scholars, notably John Van Seters, to the exilic pre-Persian period (the 6th century BCE) precisely because the Primeval History contains so much Babylonian influence in the form of myth.[31][Note 1] The Primeval History draws on two distinct "sources", the Priestly source and what is sometimes called the Yahwist source and sometimes simply the "non-Priestly"; for the purpose of discussing Adam and Eve in the Book of Genesis the terms "non-Priestly" and "Yahwist" can be regarded as interchangeable.

I find it interesting that some (otherwise) rational people interpret a very old legend as factual history.

But, lets pretend.

I do so enjoy the story of the talking snake. Did he grow up to become a politician?

hi polonius - before I remove your post as off topic random rambling can you demonstrate how it relates to the intent of the OP?

[ttruscott]

Gen 1:31 refers to everything... which must include the evil angels of the satanic rebellion who were, at that time, being held in chains of darkness in Sheol, 2 Peter 2:4 For if GOD spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell (literally: Tartarus) and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be RESERVED unto judgement. yet everything is very good.

Can you explain why you conclude that the rebellious angels existed as described by Peter at the end of the 6th creative day?

Job 38:7 tells us that people saw the creation of the physical universe and praise HIS name. Rom 1:20 tells us that no one has an excuse for not worshipping YHWH because everyone saw HIM prove HIS divinity and power by the "things that were made." Since this has never been fulfilled on earth, nor can it even be said that anyone in the history of the world ever learned clearly of YHWH's divinity and power from a study of nature, I conclude that we learned of this when HE created the physical universe before our very eyes.

I find support for our making the decision about HIS deity BEFORE this proof in Colossians 1:23...if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant. in which the verb proclaimed is in a tense that refers to a finished action in the past which has been repeated after that. That is, it was once proclaimed then often proclaimed again.

The crux is that this proclamation was heard by every creature under heaven, a poetic method of saying everyone. Since the created on earth theory has many people not yet in existence who never heard of this proclamation since Paul or before, it is impossible for it to have been fulfilled in a mankind created on earth reality. Therefore I conclude that the theory that we were all created before the physical universe and heard the gospel first in that place has the ring of truth.

It is no great leap of faith to then conclude that
- if we heard the gospel we had to choose if it was true or not
- deciding if it was true entailed accepting YHWH as our GOD or rejecting HIM as our GOD
- such decisions would then separate all of creation into those who accepted the gospel from those who did not.

It is an absolute necessity given that YHWH, who cannot abide (live with) evil that once some had self created themselves as evil by rejecting HIS deity that HE call the judgement upon them. To bring any of his elect, those who did accept HIS deity, who might have been harbouring loving feelings about any of these people condemned already, HE called for them to come out from among them in their hearts so the evil ones could be judged. It is apparent (since there are indeed sinful elect) that some idolized the condemned ones over their GOD and rejected this call forcing the postponement of the judgement until they could be redeemed and brought to holiness, safe from the judgment as per the lesson in the the parable of the good seed, Matt 13:28 “ ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.

“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’

29“ ‘NO! he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest.

This also adds credence to the absolute need for HIM to remove these sinners from heaven and sequester them away from the polite society in a prison. HE chose to create the physical universe at that time, we all saw it, and then HE had the evil ones and the elect sinners flung into the Sheol in the earth as per Rev 12:9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. to be chained in the darkness of delusion until the judgement. From here they are sown into the world: the sinful elect (people of the kingdom) sown by the Son of Man and the non-elect (people of the evil one) sown by the devil. (NOTE: this sowing cannot be a creation because the devil sows also.)

This brings us to the garden where we have Sheol full of sinners and one of them being sown into the garden on the breath of GOD bringing his sinfulness with him so even though he was the third to sin in the garden, sin in fact did enter the world with him.

Also, when GOD claimed that all was very good, ALL from HIS pov included the sinners in Sheol as that imprisonment had to be an immediate response to their evil after the creation of that prison was finished. In verse Gen 1:1 we also learn ALL also included some sinful animals since the serpent was MORE cunning than the animals and these less cunning / subtle animals were cursed for their sinfulness with the serpent though less strongly.

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 9 by ttruscott]

The crux is that this proclamation was heard by every creature under heaven, a poetic method of saying everyone. Since the created on earth theory has many people not yet in existence who never heard of this proclamation since Paul or before, it is impossible for it to have been fulfilled in a mankind created on earth reality. Therefore I conclude that the theory that we were all created before the physical universe and heard the gospel first in that place has the ring of truth.

Or, the proclamation is false and the equivalent of fake news created by the author. Conclusions based on a false premise are likely to be false themselves.