Did God betray his chosen people?

[marco]

We cannot of course question the ways of Yahweh. We are told he so loved the world etc. But likewise, he so loved the Jewish people that he sent his son among them to belittle their esteemed prophet Abraham, elevate himself to the level of the sole God they adored, then had himself crucified with blame falling on them, thus making them pariahs through the ages.



Does this signal a betrayal by God, a desertion of the people he once favoured, a preparation for their agonies in the Holocaust?

God wanted his son tortured and killed - but why did he choose the Jews as his excutioners? Christ could have been run over by a chariot, and he could still have redeemed mankind..... or was crucifixion a necessary component?

[1213]

...God wanted his son tortured and killed - but why did he choose the Jews as his excutioners? Christ could have been run over by a chariot, and he could still have redeemed mankind..... or was crucifixion a necessary component?

Please show, where has God said He wanted his son tortured and killed?

Also, I think it is good to notice Jesus forgave sins before his death, so death was not necessary for that purpose.

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

[marco]

Please show, where has God said He wanted his son tortured and killed?

This is Christian theory, not my belief. Apparently Jesus had to die - an apology wouldn't do, according to Christian theology. Does God say anything other than his famous shout from the sky?

Also, I think it is good to notice Jesus forgave sins before his death, so death was not necessary for that purpose.

Well that's another way of trying to make sense of it all. I don't think it matters what story you choose. A proclamation from God would have saved Jesus the journey.

"I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.[/i]
Luke 5:21-25

Yes, I understand that some people believe this happened literally. Has this anything to do with God betraying the Jewish people?

[William]

[Replying to post 12 by marco]

Do the Jewish people believe that their God betrayed them?

It seems to be a case of religion [A] claiming to be chosen by their God and religion claiming that religion [A] betrayed their God.

Of course, neither religion has established any truth on the matter but both have to share responsibility for their claims.

Meantime life goes on all around us...

[StuartJ]

Calling the execution of a Jewish insurrectionist by Roman authorities a human sacrifice to appease a Jewish god, sounds like a twisting of facts to me ...

Political spin put on a failed messiahship.

Sacrifices are ritual events conducted by priests.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 7 by marco]


IF THE JEWS HAD ACCEPTED JESUS AS THEIR MESSIAH WOULD THAT MEAN JESUS WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN KILLED?

• ANSWER No. Jesus death was prophecied from the very beginning (see Genesis 3:15 below and Isaiah 53: 7, 9, 10, 12). Whether or not the nation accepted their Messiah, God evidently knew Satan the Archenemy would act in line with his character, and strike when he could.
  

  GENESIS 3:15
  
  And I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring. He will crush your head, and you will strike him in the heel.
  

  If the majority of the Jews had accepted Jesus, they would have, as a nation been able to produce the 144,000 members of the future Messianic government. Every individual in the nation did not need to accept Jesus for this to be the case, just the majority. Even if every man woman and child had done so, that doesnt mean that not one person could have been seduced to betray him; after all Judas was selected as an Apostle based on his acceptance of Jesus as the Messiah, yet greed and self interest pushed him to betray Jesus who by his (Judas)own admission was innocent. And even if every individual remained perfectly loyal, let us not forget they were ultimately under Roman rule (indeed Jesus was ultimately executed by the Roman authorities) so there would have been ample opportunity for Satan to find an alternative route to get to his destination.
  
  CONCLUSION Given the record of the nation, and thousands of years of studying human nature, Satan knew that he would be able to find a human agent(s) to achieve his aims. Both YHWH (Jehovah) and his son knew that Satan is driven by his own debased perverted obsession and would not, could not resist the opportunity to try and break the integrity of the Son of God. All parties concerned knew if he (Satan) was successful, he would win the game and humanity would be lost. The stakes would have remain that high, regardless of how the Jews received their Messiah.

'RELATED POSTS

Can Satan go against his own nature? (The frog &the scorpion)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 001#828001

Free Will: Can our present choices change our future?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 997#942997

Why did God choose the descendents of Abraham to be his chosen nation?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 643#940643

Is Satan delusional?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 655#939655


NOTE All posts I write represent my personal faith based beliefs as one of Jehovah's Witnesses

[William]

[Replying to post 14 by StuartJ]

Calling the execution of a Jewish insurrectionist by Roman authorities a human sacrifice to appease a Jewish god, sounds like a twisting of facts to me ...

In my travels I have come into contact with people claiming to be Jews who explain the Holocaust as a judgement from their GOD due to some failing on the part of Jews as a people in relation to their GOD.

Perhaps it is a 'twisting of the facts' as well - and/or done to explain why the GOD appears to abandon them into the hands of murderous oppressors from time to time...

[marco]

Do the Jewish people believe that their God betrayed them?

I think they've been more true to their God than he has to them. It's sad that they immerse such unrequited love in a cruel myth. I wasn't discussing Judaism but the wickedness of Christian writers using Jews as objects for sport. Literature belittles them, thanks to the peripatetic preacher called Christ and his betrayal of those who raised him.

Meantime life goes on all around us...

Or is snuffed out at religion's whim.

[marco]

Calling the execution of a Jewish insurrectionist by Roman authorities a human sacrifice to appease a Jewish god, sounds like a twisting of facts to me ...

Political spin put on a failed messiahship.

Sacrifices are ritual events conducted by priests.

Talking of ritual sacrifices in days when we've discovered antibiotics and when we supply hearing aids rather than call in Christ to alleviate deafness is preferring darkness to light. Paul admitted his myopia and hoped for an age of opticians. We have it.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 15 by JehovahsWitness]

IF THE JEWS HAD ACCEPTED JESUS AS THEIR MESSIAH WOULD THAT MEAN JESUS WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN KILLED?

Absolutely, and not only that, the Jews would have been paying Roman tax and obeying Roman law, as Jesus and etc., directed, and the Diaspora would not have occurred.

[marco]

In my travels I have come into contact with people claiming to be Jews who explain the Holocaust as a judgement from their GOD due to some failing on the part of Jews as a people in relation to their GOD.

A common symptom of religious fever is claiming God has meted out some meteorological punishment. The Italian Earthquake was apparently a punishment for false faith, according to a Muslim website. On the other hand God orchestrated the 2004 tsunami against Muslims and apparently led some Christians to safety. Here's the joyous news:

"On December 25, 2004 the 400 Christians wanted to celebrate Christmas in the city, but the Moslem authorities did not allow them to do it. They were told, If you Christians want to celebrate Christmas, you must do it outside the city, that is in a remote part of the mountain area! Due to the great desire to hold a special worship service to celebrate the coming of the Savior, the 400 believers decided to go to a retreat in the mountains outside the city. After finishing the celebration, because the day was already dark, they decided to spend the night in the mountains. Then what happened?

As we already all knew that the next morning, very early on December 26, 2004 a dreadful earthquake and an enormous high tide of tsunami ruined and destroyed the city of Meulaboh where many were killed by the tsunami. Meulaboh city was made flat to the ground and all of the houses and buildings were washed away and fell to pieces. But all of the believers who went to the worship service in the mountains, the redeemed people of God in Christ Jesus were safe, they were not touched by the tsunami at all!


God also spread AIDS among homosexuals and possibly incited Kaiser William to go to war so that God could illustrate his power around the Somme. God is dangerous in more ways than one. But he's kind, too, as the above article illustrates. Pity about his people though.