What Did Jesus Actually Sacrifice?

Argue for and against Christianity

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RedEye
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What Did Jesus Actually Sacrifice?

Post #1

Post by RedEye »

These are some lyrics from Jesus Christ Superstar:
  • Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ
    Who are you? What have you sacrificed?
It's a great question. What did Jesus actually sacrifice?

Christian doctrine has it that Jesus sacrificed his life in order to appease God the Father and gain forgiveness for the sins of mankind. But did Jesus really sacrifice his life? He is an immortal being and therefore cannot die. All that happened, if anything, is that he shed his Earthly body and then ascended back to his place in heaven. Shedding a temporary body is no big deal for a god. Jesus is alive and well in heaven (and he will be making a second coming soon according to many).

If you are alive then you did not really die. It was a pretend death. I know some of you may argue that it was a real death of his Earthly body, but so what? He wasn't going to stay in that form forever and it was only a shell he was wearing over his divine nature. The plan was always for him to return to his Father. Human bodies die eventually anyway from old age. Jesus lost nothing essential to him.

I therefore put it to Christians that there was no actual sacrifice. Can any Christian argue otherwise?
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jeremiah1five
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Re: What Did Jesus Actually Sacrifice?

Post #21

Post by jeremiah1five »

RedEye wrote:
I therefore put it to Christians that there was actual sacrifice. Can any Christian argue otherwise?
I agree.
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Re: What Did Jesus Actually Sacrifice?

Post #22

Post by RedEye »

jeremiah1five wrote:
RedEye wrote: I therefore put it to Christians that there was actual sacrifice. Can any Christian argue otherwise?
I agree.
It's dishonest to tamper with a quote from your opponent. You are basically putting words into my mouth which are the direct opposite of what I actually stated.
Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence.

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jeremiah1five
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Re: What Did Jesus Actually Sacrifice?

Post #23

Post by jeremiah1five »

RedEye wrote:
jeremiah1five wrote:
RedEye wrote: I therefore put it to Christians that there was actual sacrifice. Can any Christian argue otherwise?
I agree.
It's dishonest to tamper with a quote from your opponent. You are basically putting words into my mouth which are the direct opposite of what I actually stated.
This is what you did to my comment which included Scripture that answered your question/thread.

I said, "Pick me! Pick me! Pick me! I know! I know!"

Then you snipped:

<snipped as off-topic>

Then I asked you:

Now, do you fully understand His birth?

You don't think omission isn't the same?

It is. I'm just doing to you what you did to me, but you were dishonest first.
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RedEye
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Re: What Did Jesus Actually Sacrifice?

Post #24

Post by RedEye »

jeremiah1five wrote:
RedEye wrote:
jeremiah1five wrote:
RedEye wrote: I therefore put it to Christians that there was actual sacrifice. Can any Christian argue otherwise?
I agree.
It's dishonest to tamper with a quote from your opponent. You are basically putting words into my mouth which are the direct opposite of what I actually stated.
This is what you did to my comment which included Scripture that answered your question/thread.

I said, "Pick me! Pick me! Pick me! I know! I know!"

Then you snipped:

<snipped as off-topic>

Then I asked you:

Now, do you fully understand His birth?

You don't think omission isn't the same?

It is. I'm just doing to you what you did to me, but you were dishonest first.
It's not the same thing at all. I didn't change the meaning of anything you wrote plus I explicitly indicated that I was snipping out off-topic text. There is nothing at all dishonest about that. I was right upfront with what I was doing. First remove the beam out of your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother's eye.
Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence.

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Re: What Did Jesus Actually Sacrifice?

Post #25

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to post 1 by RedEye]

God did not have to come to earth, to limit himself to our reality. How isn't that part of the normal definition of sacrifice?

Can humans sacrifice anything? Given that we were nothing and had nothing before we were born and are nothing and have nothing after we die. What can we sacrifice?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image :)."

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jeremiah1five
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Re: What Did Jesus Actually Sacrifice?

Post #26

Post by jeremiah1five »

RedEye wrote:
jeremiah1five wrote:
RedEye wrote:
jeremiah1five wrote:
RedEye wrote: I therefore put it to Christians that there was actual sacrifice. Can any Christian argue otherwise?
I agree.
It's dishonest to tamper with a quote from your opponent. You are basically putting words into my mouth which are the direct opposite of what I actually stated.
This is what you did to my comment which included Scripture that answered your question/thread.

I said, "Pick me! Pick me! Pick me! I know! I know!"

Then you snipped:

<snipped as off-topic>

Then I asked you:

Now, do you fully understand His birth?

You don't think omission isn't the same?

It is. I'm just doing to you what you did to me, but you were dishonest first.
It's not the same thing at all. I didn't change the meaning of anything you wrote plus I explicitly indicated that I was snipping out off-topic text. There is nothing at all dishonest about that. I was right upfront with what I was doing. First remove the beam out of your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother's eye.
There ya go.
You see, that's the difference between you and I. What you did to manipulate my words by bringing scissors to the debate, and my manipulating of your words by making a change - adding, subtracting, whatever - are the same thing. You don't see it. The light is not on. But don't take that as an insult. Just consider.

Moving on...the Scripture I first posted is the answer to your question or position, or standing on your OP. It was a Covenant-thing. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, all conspiring to create the heavens, the earth, and man and stick them inside a three-dimensional - oops, I mean a four-dimensional universe - pull out those that I want and then to bring them all into Trinity I send my Son and He obeys as the Holy Spirit waits, and when He is born He will be a different - but same - Son I knew and Eternally knew. All God is doing is preparing bodies to go with those names in the 'book' of life of the lamb slain...
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Re: What Did Jesus Actually Sacrifice?

Post #27

Post by StuartJ »

RedEye wrote:
jeremiah1five wrote:
RedEye wrote: I therefore put it to Christians that there was actual sacrifice. Can any Christian argue otherwise?
I agree.
It's dishonest to tamper with a quote from your opponent. You are basically putting words into my mouth which are the direct opposite of what I actually stated.
I've caught one or two of Christ's Children up to the same tricks.

I have difficulty trusting people of faith when it comes to matters of faith.
No one EVER demonstrates that "God" exists outside their parietal cortex.

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Re: What Did Jesus Actually Sacrifice?

Post #28

Post by RedEye »

Wootah wrote: [Replying to post 1 by RedEye]
God did not have to come to earth, to limit himself to our reality. How isn't that part of the normal definition of sacrifice?
If you are saying that Jesus didn't have to come down slumming with us then I might agree. However, that is not the Christian doctrine to which I am referring. Christians tell us that Jesus died deliberately to serve as a sacrifice to his Father so He would forgive us for our sins. It is the "dying for our sins" which I am contesting as being any kind of sacrifice.
Can humans sacrifice anything? Given that we were nothing and had nothing before we were born and are nothing and have nothing after we die. What can we sacrifice?
We can sacrifice whatever remaining years we had of our lives. That is one helluva sacrifice. The difference is that we truly die. It's not pretend death as in the case of Jesus.
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Re: What Did Jesus Actually Sacrifice?

Post #29

Post by RedEye »

jeremiah1five wrote:
RedEye wrote: It's not the same thing at all. I didn't change the meaning of anything you wrote plus I explicitly indicated that I was snipping out off-topic text. There is nothing at all dishonest about that. I was right upfront with what I was doing. First remove the beam out of your own eye, and then you can see clearly to remove the speck out of your brother's eye.
There ya go.
You see, that's the difference between you and I. What you did to manipulate my words by bringing scissors to the debate, and my manipulating of your words by making a change - adding, subtracting, whatever - are the same thing. You don't see it. The light is not on. But don't take that as an insult. Just consider.
The insult is to the intelligence of the gentle readers of this thread. I'm sorry that you can't acknowledge your poor behaviour. I have nothing more to say to you if you are going to carry on in this fashion.
Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence.

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RedEye
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Re: What Did Jesus Actually Sacrifice?

Post #30

Post by RedEye »

StuartJ wrote:
RedEye wrote:
jeremiah1five wrote:
RedEye wrote: I therefore put it to Christians that there was actual sacrifice. Can any Christian argue otherwise?
I agree.
It's dishonest to tamper with a quote from your opponent. You are basically putting words into my mouth which are the direct opposite of what I actually stated.
I've caught one or two of Christ's Children up to the same tricks.

I have difficulty trusting people of faith when it comes to matters of faith.
All that was needed was to say that it was a joke and that nothing more was meant by it. (An apology would have been nice but not expected at my end). Instead all we see is denial. It's poor form alright.
Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence.

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