Did God betray his chosen people?

[marco]

We cannot of course question the ways of Yahweh. We are told he so loved the world etc. But likewise, he so loved the Jewish people that he sent his son among them to belittle their esteemed prophet Abraham, elevate himself to the level of the sole God they adored, then had himself crucified with blame falling on them, thus making them pariahs through the ages.



Does this signal a betrayal by God, a desertion of the people he once favoured, a preparation for their agonies in the Holocaust?

God wanted his son tortured and killed - but why did he choose the Jews as his excutioners? Christ could have been run over by a chariot, and he could still have redeemed mankind..... or was crucifixion a necessary component?

[William]

[Replying to post 20 by marco]

A common symptom of religious fever is claiming God has meted out some meteorological punishment. The Italian Earthquake was apparently a punishment for false faith, according to a Muslim website. On the other hand God orchestrated the 2004 tsunami against Muslims and apparently led some Christians to safety...

While your reply certainly holds a truth about the way religious people see an alleged judgment from GOD on other people of other religions (and non religions) my comments were specific to a religious people who see GODs judgement upon themselves for what they think of as a betrayal the chosen committed against their GOD which caused their GOD to turn his back on them.

I am not arguing for the sensibility of such belief therein Marco. I am simply arguing something which the OP itself didn't mention but which happens as well. Some - and even many religious Jews - believe that it is not their GOD who betrays them, but the other way around.

[marco]

IF THE JEWS HAD ACCEPTED JESUS AS THEIR MESSIAH WOULD THAT MEAN JESUS WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN KILLED?

• ANSWER No. Jesus death was prophecied from the very beginning (see Genesis 3:15 below and Isaiah 53: 7, 9, 10, 12). Whether or not the nation accepted their Messiah, God evidently knew Satan the Archenemy would act in line with his character, and strike when he could.

There are elements of theology that are entertaining and seem based on reason, so to speak. But this rubbish about God waiting with his cavalry to charge against Satan and his charioteers is too absurd even for a smile. The arch-enemy, indeed! I thought that was Professor Moriarty.

If the majority of the Jews had accepted Jesus, they would have, as a nation been able to produce the 144,000 members of the future Messianic government. Every individual in the nation did not need to accept Jesus for this to be the case, just the majority.

I assume seriousness! The introduction of quadratic equations, - or is it Euclid's Algorithm? - from the sapience of Revelation is presumably offered as food to vulnerable children. I bless the stars that nobody ever bothered me with this nonsense as a boy. Thank God for the wisdom of Santa.

CONCLUSION Given the record of the nation, and thousands of years of studying human nature, Satan knew ......

Satan of the spirit world is presumably not bothered by temporal concerns, which involve the rotation of our Earth round what is now called the Sun, not Apollo. So he has spent thousands of years studying for his doctorate, doubtless awarded by God? Why are we being told this? What possible relevance does it have to the suffering of the Jews at t hands of Chrstians as a result of God's misguided plans?

[marco]

Some - and even many religious Jews - believe that it is not their GOD who betrays them, but the other way around.

Yes and it's a relevant point, William. It's the pious way of seeing things - wrong, maybe, but pious. I read that a small boy was sentenced with some adults to be hanged in a German camp. The adults died but the boy was too light and simply remained suffering, with no one allowed to end his pain. A Rabbi prayed to God for help and eventually despaired: "There is no God." A natural conclusion if we associate God with compassion.

I recounted the story of a little girl whose parents were murdered in front of her and she ran upstairs to pray for help in her room. The murderer admitted he heard her and smashed her skull. A Christian offered the explanation that perhaps the child had used the wrong prayer. A priest told me that God was just "testing Abraham". As fathers do when they ask their sons to commit murder! Religion finds weird and wonderful explanations.


I don't believe in Yahweh at all; I think his Biblical portrayal matches anything in the Greek pantheon for cruelty. It is a blessing he is a fiction. I think that Christians, through their theology, have demonised Jews. Like the Holocaust Rabbi I would also utter, seeing what Jews have suffered, there is no Yahweh.

[William]

[Replying to post 23 by marco]

Like the Holocaust Rabbi I would also utter, seeing what Jews have suffered, there is no Yahweh.

Of course you would Marco. I think where we probably part company is that I think a creator of this universe general, planet specific exist and thus are responsible for said creation and that this in itself does not mean that the entities themselves are evil.

I think this is the crux of the matter in terms of human behavior related to beliefs in different ideas of GOD, whether the behaviors are used to condemn self or others/self and others.

I am not convinced that such behavior is an accurate reflection of those creators (or that creator, if one prefers) and have found ways in which such behavior done in GODs names do not prevent me from intelligent investigation regarding such a notion as "the universe general - planet specific, are the work of an intelligent self aware creative entity" to the point where I am unable to distinguish between pure acts of GOD and brutal or submissive acts of humans proclaimed done to appease or otherwise serve GOD.

I am neither the willing victim nor the willful victimizer, any more than I think the creator is. That is why I understand my self as being a particle of GOD-Consciousness incarcerated for a time within this mortal sentence of life and death, understanding as I do that I am part of someone who is neither the victimizer nor the victim and how that knowledge serves to free me from the human drama as it reintegrates me into the greater knowledge of who I am and where I come from.

[center][font=Comic Sans MS]Nobody said it would be easy - nobody said it would be hard
Some receive fate off a silver plate - and some at the turn of a card
We might get through this life to discover - that dying really isn't death at all
Our eyes could open wide at the other side - we just don't know what's over that wall
But I don't wan't to hear no more that you're sorry
Just never ever do it again
And if you do I'll love you but I'll worry
That you
Forgot to be my Friend...[/font][/center]

[marco]

[Replying to post 24 by William]


Not accepting Yahweh is a far cry from saying there is nothing beyond human awareness. I can accept the existence of other dimensions, through mathematics, and though I can comprehend the dimension in which I am incarcerated, I have no concept of what might exist outside my sphere - if existence is meaningful.

Anyway, assuming the butterfly's wings affect the Earth's movement is not accepting that Yahweh turned some woman into a pile of sodium chloride. One is science and the other silly superstition.

I suppose all discussions here are aimed at reducing belief to absurdity. But one must actually see the absurdity to accept the proof, and if one accepts everything is possible, then Yahweh continues to skate happily on Biblical thin ice. He doesn't do anything but there he is.

[JehovahsWitness]

So [Satan] he has spent thousands of years studying for his doctorate, ...?

No I don't believe Satan studied for a doctorate or any such qualification.

When I said Satan "studied" humans, I used the word study as in "a detailed investigation and analysis" to look at closely to gain information....not literally going to a school or another institution or spending time to obtain a diploma or other academic qualification.

I can see why you would take "study" to only mean obtain a doctorate though. I do hope my added details were of some help.

Please have a most wonderful day,

JW

DOCTORATE


the highest degree awarded by a university faculty or other approved educational organization.

[marco]

No I don't believe Satan studied for a doctorate or any such qualification.

When I said Satan "studied" humans, I used the word study as in "a detailed investigation and analysis" to look at closely to gain information....not literally going to a school or another institution or spending time to obtain a diploma or other academic qualification.

The science of Satan is fascinating. Is it not the case that this clever being can disguise himself as an aspring graduate and gain his earthly doctorate through craft and guile. Given that knowledge about Satan seems to fall from oak trees, I thought this might be a safe conclusion.

Of course poor Marco is ignorant of divine institutions and how they are run, though I gather from past intelligence here that they seem to follow earthly lines, with Jesus setting up a democracy, a parliament indeed, discussion chambers and detached houses for the select, with hot and cold water designed by angelic plumbers. It's not outside the boundaries of possibility and guesswork to suppose Satan has the equivalent of a doctorate - at least in the lowly study of theology. Surely he is at leasst a Master there - no?

If one deals in fictions, one must expect to receive fictions in exchange.