There Is No Such Thing As Valid Prophecy

RedEye · Post by **RedEye** » Thu Nov 15, 2018 4:10 am

Christians will often cite fulfilled prophecy as evidence for their religion being true. Ignoring the fact that none of these so-called fulfilled prophecies hold up to scrutiny when closely examined, is such biblical prophecy even possible in the first place?

For prophecy to be possible, the future must be predetermined. That is the only way that the path of the future could be known with absolute certainty. However, if the future is predetermined then there can be no such thing as human free will. Free will cannot exist in a universe where the course of the universe is already known in detail in advance. We could only be automatons acting out a predetermined script with no deviation possible.

That creates a dilemma for Christians who want both prophecy to be valid and free will to exist. They obviously can't have both.

If you are a Christian the question is, which one of these are you willing to give up and why?

Willum · Post by **Willum** » Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:35 pm

[Replying to post 60 by RedEye]

Well, if all you are is a nay-sayer, there is not really any discussion is there?
What I have said is true from at least one or more perspective, and I don't see how you avoid the omnipotence card, or the mass psychology card, and neither do you.

I don't buy your objection. God doesn't need to send a tidal wave, that was simply a intuitive example.

RedEye · Post by **RedEye** » Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:46 pm

Willum wrote: [Replying to post 60 by RedEye]
Well, if all you are is a nay-sayer, there is not really any discussion is there?
What I have said is true from at least one or more perspective, and I don't see how you avoid the omnipotence card, or the mass psychology card, and neither do you.

You still aren't explaining how what you claim happens actually happens. Woolly phrases such as "the omnipotence card" and "mass psychology" don't help a discussion. They hinder it. I have no onus to refute the vague terms you constantly bandy around. Provide a concrete example and then we can have a discussion. Or not.

I don't buy your objection. God doesn't need to send a tidal wave, that was simply a intuitive example.

Intuitive? It was your example, not mine! I can see why you might want to disown it though.

Willum · Post by **Willum** » Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:31 pm

[Replying to post 62 by RedEye]

"How what I am claiming actually happens."?
1. God can do anything. I do not know what is difficult to understand about that.
2. Mass Psychology,I don't know how I could explain it better than Wiki... people act differently in groups. It is just true.
3. You didn't mention a jerrymander, certainly God, if he existed, would have options available that easily constrained decision making...
and so on.

That's the fundamentals, if you don't understand it from there, I can't help you.

RedEye · Post by **RedEye** » Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:54 pm

Willum wrote: [Replying to post 62 by RedEye]

"How what I am claiming actually happens."?
1. God can do anything. I do not know what is difficult to understand about that.

But that isn't the issue. The issue is how God can direct the course of human history (world history) or even know it with certainty in advance without interfering with human free will. You can't just appeal to "omnipotence" without offering an explanation of how it is possible since it defies logic (as I have already explained in previous posts).

2. Mass Psychology,I don't know how I could explain it better than Wiki... people act differently in groups. It is just true.

So what? Often people act completely independently of any group. You aren't explaining anything. Certainly the psychology of groups does not necessitate any intervention by God. How would God intervene to influence a group? I asked for a concrete example and you offer nothing.

3. You didn't mention a jerrymander, certainly God, if he existed, would have options available that easily constrained decision making...
and so on.

Here we go again. You throw out another woolly term "gerrymander" and we're all supposed to know what you mean by it. It's a political term involving manipulating boundaries of electorates to influence the outcome of an election. What this has to do with God and human free will is anyone's guess. Are you suggesting that God is meddling with district boundaries?

Willum · Post by **Willum** » Tue Nov 20, 2018 10:39 pm

[Replying to post 64 by RedEye]

But that isn't the issue. The issue is how God can direct the course of human history (world history) or even know it with certainty in advance without interfering with human free will.

It has been explained, and you don't get it.
That is not my failing.

So what? Often people act completely independently of any group. You aren't explaining anything.

I disagree, you are not understanding.

Here we go again. You throw out another woolly term "gerrymander" and we're all supposed to know what you mean by it. It's a political term involving manipulating boundaries of electorates to influence the outcome of an election. What this has to do with God and human free will is anyone's guess. Are you suggesting that God is meddling with district boundaries?

I am sorry, it beggars my imagination that you don't understand how a similar could be applied if there were a involved using other constraints. For example, sending a rain storm could get a less enthusiastic larger body of voters not to show, while an enthusiastic minority could pull it off.

I am sorry, I don't feel the conversation is failing due to any effort on my part.

RedEye · Post by **RedEye** » Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:05 am

Willum wrote: I am sorry, I don't feel the conversation is failing due to any effort on my part.

Why don't we just agree to disagree on that?