What Would a Good Jewish Girl Do?

[RedEye]

I want to pose a hypothetical scenario. Imagine a young Jewish girl a couple of thousand years ago. She is pledged to be married but the marriage has not been consummated yet. This girl is a devout follower of Judaism like her parents and husband-to-be. She attends her local Synagogue with them and listens earnestly to the Rabbi reciting Jewish scripture and teachings. Judaism teaches that there is only one true God (Yahweh). There are no other gods or demi-gods.

The region in which she lives is occupied by the Romans and she is aware that they worship a pantheon of gods and demi-gods. (Demi-gods are produced by a male god mating with a human female or a human male mating with a female god). They even worship their emperor in Rome like a god. She has no doubt had some contact with Greeks (gentiles) in her town too and come to know that they also have a pantheon of their own gods and demi-gods. Her Rabbi warns her against such pagan beliefs and constantly stresses that all these other gods are false. There is one and only one true God and his name is Yahweh.

Then one day an apparition appears to our Jewish girl. It tells her that God wants to inseminate her so that she can give him a son. Now, what would a good Jewish girl do in these circumstances?

A. Run immediately to her parents and tell them that a pagan god wants to inseminate her before she is married. (It has to be a pagan god because Yahweh would never ask for such a thing).
B. Run to her future husband and ask for help so that she does not end up committing adultery against her will.
C. Run to her Rabbi, tell him of this blasphemous request and get advice on how to deal with this demon that approached her.
D. Acquiesce meekly despite it going against everything she has ever been taught as a devout Jew.

Which course of action makes the least sense given the cultural context?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 34 by FarWanderer]


So basically you can't prove what you say.

You are expressing a belief and your belief is Mary didn't think of what almost anyone that knows where babies come from would think. Does that about sum up your "revelation" ?

Easy. She conceives the normal way with Joseph, some time in the future.

Yet somehow such a thought never even occurred to her.

It's illogical what you just assumed here (assumption, belief, guess whatever...) what you assume goes against everything we know about human nature.

Yet somehow such a thought never even occurred to her.

For as long as babies have been conceived they have been conceived through sexual intercourse between a man and a woman, so leaving aside the frankly ludirous claim to know what Mary did or didn't think, the very fact that she is reported as asking how such a thing was possible since she was a virgin implies (for those that actually do have common sense) that she believed that such a thing would indeed be possible if she were not a virgin.

Still if you believe in your heart that Mary didn't think what everybody would have thought I'll leave it at that, if nothing else your common sense makes for hilarious reading.

Have a most excellent weekend anyway,


JW

[bluethread]

You will need to cite a source for that. Clearly Jesus was a Jew and he interacted with Gentiles quite easily. I think you might be making this up. There is no doubt that many Jews had strict rules about diet and unclean things, but total social disconnect? No, that seems to be fiction.

That depends on the sect. The Herodians had no problem with interacting with the Goyim. That said, I don't think that any but the strictest sects would have not done business with the Goyim. HaTorah even refers to doing business with the Goyim. With regard to unclean meats, the commandment explicitly permit the selling of them too the Goyim. That said, in areas of separation, Adonai's people would avoid contact with them, lest they be made unclean and unable to the Temple and making sacrifice.

Contrary to the views of many, Yeshua is an orthodox rabbi. His purpose, when He was here on earth, was to embody(fulfill) HaTorah. This would be of no use to the Goyim. The few times that Yeshua is recorded to have interacted with them, it was first necessary for them to acknowledge the authority of HaTorah.

[tam]

Peace to you,

A - You did not finish quoting from Mark (and we will find a similar passage in Matthew) about the gentile woman, whom Christ at first did not answer, then answered to say that He came only for the lost sheep of Israel, then - after she showed great faith - He granted her request. But He did not grant her request at first, because she was not Israel (Jew or Samaritan).

The issue is not granting her request or not. The issue is whether Jesus had no interaction with Gentiles as you claimed. Do you now retract that assertion?

I never claimed He had no interactions with Gentiles.

B - It could be that the Centurion was a gentile with great faith (like the woman above), but that would still be an exception and not the norm. However, Capernaum had a Jewish and Samaritan presence, so the man might have been Israel as well.

What? Do you know what a centurion was? He was a commander responsible for 100 soldiers in the Roman army. And you are seriously claiming that he might have been a Jew?

A Jew, no. But it might be possible that he was a descendant of the Northern Kingdom (Samaria), making him Israel. Or not, since my Lord said that He had not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.

If an actual Gentile, then his request being granted was an exception due to great faith, and not the norm, same as the gentile woman, whom Christ did not respond to at first.

You are still missing the point. Your claim was that Jews did not interact with Gentiles. Your own holy book refutes you.

I did not claim that they had no contact. Obviously there was contact between them. But you seem to be suggesting that Mary had a number of gentile women as friends and influences - including much pagan influences - and where is your evidence for these things?


(Just as a side point: Jews and Samaritans did not speak or have contact, though you will notice that my Lord did not keep to that 'rule'. Just because He did something does not mean that the rest of the Jews did this.)

You also have no evidence that the centurion was gay, so I am not sure why you throw that in there. I could not care less if he was gay or straight, but you have no evidence for this.

Think about it. Here was a Roman centurion willing to humble himself by asking a Jew for help with a sick servant boy. You would need to be fairly desperate to do that. A replacement servant would not be hard to come by for a senior Roman official. Therefore he must have had a "special relationship" with the boy. This was not uncommon at the time. What is even more interesting is that it hints at jealousy on the part of the centurion. Jesus himself might have had a certain reputation in that area. He surrounded himself with young men after all. The centurion was very reluctant for Jesus to cure the boy in person. He wanted Jesus to do it from a distance. What other reason could he possibly have for not wanting Jesus to meet the servant boy face to face, lay hands on him and heal him? It sounds like jealousy to me.

So just supposition (as seems to be the basis of most of your claims on this thread). I am not knocking your right to suppose things - but that does not make you correct. This is why I also questioned your claim about Mary's thoughts during and after her visit with the angel. Especially since you do not seem able or willing to take into consideration the fact that she knew her God could perform miracles, including bringing life into being, even from nothing.

As for the centurion, the man might have loved his servant for many reasons. He also gave his reason for not wanting Christ to come into his house - he did not deserve to have Him come under his roof.

(That wall between Jew and Gentile was "torn down" after Christ's death and resurrection, but before then Gentiles were not invited in, unless they converted of course.)

You will need to cite a source for that. Clearly Jesus was a Jew and he interacted with Gentiles quite easily. I think you might be making this up. There is no doubt that many Jews had strict rules about diet and unclean things, but total social disconnect? No, that seems to be fiction.

I was speaking more spiritually. "There is no Jew or Gentile, male or female..."

In the religion, Gentiles were not permitted into the physical Temple (they would have been unclean - and also uncircumcised), except for a specific area in the outer courts designated for them, but they could go no further.

After Christ was rejected by physical Israel (for the most part) then the Way opened up for Gentiles as well to be grafted into Israel as well. To become Israel by faith. To be one with Christ and one another (and with the natural branches as well: Jews and Samaritans). So that there is no more wall between them.



Peace again to you.

[tam]

Peace to you,


Here is some information on the attitudes regarding Jewish and Gentile relations:

GENTILE, non-Jew. It was only during the later Second Temple period that a sharp distinction and a barrier of separation was erected between the Jew and the gentile. The prohibition of marriage, which in the Bible was limited to the seven Canaanite nations (Deut. 7:1"4), was extended, following the reforms of Ezra, to include all non-Jews; the acceptance of monotheism was made the distinguishing mark of the Jew (Meg. 13a, Esth. R. 6:2); the Jews were regarded as having completely discarded *idolatry which was, however, uniformly characteristic of the non-Jew. In addition to that the low moral, social, and ethical standards of the surrounding gentiles were continuously emphasized, and social contact with them was regarded as being a pernicious social and moral influence. As a result, during this period the world was regarded as divided, insofar as peoples were concerned, into the Jewish people and the "nations of the world," and insofar as individuals were concerned, into "the Jew" and the idolater ("oved kokhavim u-mazzalot," usually abbreviated to "akkum," literally "a worshiper of stars and planets" but applied to all idolaters). Only considerations of humanity, such as relief of their poor, visiting their sick, affording them last rites (Git. 61a), and discretion ("one greets a gentile on their festivals for the sake of peace" " Tosef. Av. Zar. 1:3) were reasons for breaking the otherwise impenetrable barrier. As a result, the conception of and the attitude toward the non-Jew from the Talmudic period onward are strikingly different from that during the biblical period.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/gentile


**

As BT pointed out, how much interaction one might have would also depend upon their sect.



Peace again to you!

[tam]

Peace to you redeye,

[Replying to post 22 by RedEye]

In addition to what has already been stated (I am going to copy out part of the exchange between Mary and the angel for clarity):

Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. But the angel said to her, Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him [Jesus]. He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over Jacobs descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.

How will this be, Mary asked the angel, since I am a virgin?


The fact that she asked how this could be since she is a virgin should tell you that she did not expect that she would be having sexual intercourse with the Most High, even though the child will be called the Son of the Most High.

The angel goes on to emphasize that nothing is impossible with God:


Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month. For nothing is impossible with God.


The angel makes a point to emphasize that nothing is impossible with God. So it is also not impossible with God that a virgin should conceive.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[FarWanderer]

[Replying to post 34 by FarWanderer]


So basically you can't prove what you say.

You are expressing a belief and your belief is Mary didn't think of what almost anyone that knows where babies come from would think. Does that about sum up your "revelation" ?

Easy. She conceives the normal way with Joseph, some time in the future.

Yet somehow such a thought never even occurred to her.

It's illogical what you just assumed here (assumption, belief, guess whatever...) what you assume goes against everything we know about human nature.

I said that what never occurred to her was that the baby would be a result of intercourse with Joseph.

Yet somehow such a thought never even occurred to her.

For as long as babies have been conceived they have been conceived through sexual intercourse between a man and a woman, so leaving aside the frankly ludirous claim to know what Mary did or didn't think, the very fact that she is reported as asking how such a thing was possible since she was a virgin implies (for those that actually do have common sense) that she believed that such a thing would indeed be possible if she were not a virgin.

But its perfectly possible if she is a virgin, too. A womans virginity status at present has nothing to do with whether the woman will conceive a child in the future. This is common sense, and theres no way Mary wouldnt know this.

So what in heck is she talking about when she responds to Gabriels prophecy with How can this be? Since I am a virgin.?

[StuartJ]

[Replying to post 42 by bluethread]

Contrary to the views of many, Yeshua is an orthodox rabbi. His purpose, when He was here on earth, was to embody(fulfill) HaTorah.

No one ever demonstrates that the Jesus character was anything more than fictional - the best that is ever done is "highly likely" ...

Yet YOU are telling us here what he IS/WAS ...

AND ...

YOU know his purpose ...

AND ...

You seem to be implying that the storybook character had extraterrestrial origins.

Give us some good non-fiction to examine.

[Willum]

[Replying to StuartJ]

Bluethread is under the impression that either John the Baptist or just saying so makes you a full Rabbi. It has been explained to him that this is not a fact.
It would be like you making me a Rabbi.

[StuartJ]

[Replying to StuartJ]

Bluethread is under the impression that either John the Baptist or just saying so makes you a full Rabbi. It has been explained to him that this is not a fact.
It would be like you making me a Rabbi.

I would love to help ...

But it seems with these good folks, you CAN obtain FREE ONLINE ORDINATION ...!

May blessings of goodness be upon you in your calling

How Do I Become Ordained as a Rabbi? - Get Ordained
https://getordained.org/blog/how-do-i-b ... as-a-rabbi
Nov 10, 2012 - Begin Free Online Ordination ... Rabbis are ordained when they have a semikhah (meaning "leaning ... To use become ordained as a rabbi, a person must study Jewish history and theology for years at an academic institute.

[RedEye]

[Replying to post 39 by RedEye]

And he rejected them, and even embraced blasphemy, in the name of foreign gods. Among other things.

You aren't Jewish because you say so.
If you eat pork, promote foreign gods (Caesars) and so on, that make you non-Jewish.

• Matthew 5 (Jesus speaking)
  17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. 18For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
  
  19So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus sounds like a Jew to me. He came to fulfill Jewish Law. He might have been a bit radical in the view of some, but he was still a Jew.