From Whence the Soul ...?

[StuartJ]

Do humans have a soul ...?

Is it a re-cycled soul ...?

Is it a pre-manufactured soul, sitting on a shelf in Heaven, waiting to flutter down and occupy the result of every successful human copulation ...?

[Guy Threepwood]

[Replying to post 20 by Jagella]

Well, my thoughts aren't "stuck to electronic devices," and those thoughts can exist just fine without electronic devices. In the same way a spirit supposedly can exist just fine without a body and in fact is arguably better off without a body. So we still have the unresolved riddle regarding spirits stuck to bodies for no obvious reason.

That would be the point, your thoughts CAN exist without you installing them in remote devices, and many would argue that we WOULD be better keeping them to ourselves (especially over thanksgiving dinner!)

But you/ we chose otherwise- because of our free will

You need to justify why spirits cannot have experiences, interactions, tests and can learn and have meaning all without a body. Why is it important for a spirit to have all these things?

Let me try a different take

Imagine yourself as the preserved brain in a jar ( a-la Simpsons or Man With Two Brains)

And you are alone with another brain, and you can communicate thoughts telepathically without bodies.

So you can still have some meaningful conversations right? and yes, you are also arguably 'better off' in that you are now immune from all danger, pain, hunger, etc etc

But now remove all the memories you gathered while in a body.. what are you left with? what are you going to talk about? what are you going to learn from each other?

what does hot and cold mean?
what is pleasure and pain?
what is good and bad?
what is right and wrong?
what is love?

i.e. bodies give souls meaning, and so they cannot become 'souls' without them

[ttruscott]

But now remove all the memories you gathered while in a body.. what are you left with? what are you going to talk about? what are you going to learn from each other?

A society of spirits without a physical universe would mature in the areas of mathematics, poetic expressions of thought and adding the nuances of timing, cadence and accent to the poetry would bring them to the realm of mental singing. Then there is the philosophical possibilities (who are we, why are we here) to discuss and religious possibilities (are we eternal, were we created) especially if GOD was involved with this society as three spirits with no noticable differences from the others. When immature they would be busy with getting to know themselves, developing themselves and learning about others and forming bonds with those we especially liked.

Then once the gospel was proclaimed to everyone as per Col 1:23, life would take on a whole new dimension of possibilities for the future.

[William]

[Replying to post 14 by StuartJ]

their personality which develops

"Growing spiritually" as they say.

Well that is the person. What I had to say about my own understanding of the soul was that is was an aspect of ones individuate consciousness which functions as the data of experience storage facility. One could say it 'evolves' in the sense of a collection of experiences being added to. It does not have to have anything to do with 'growing spiritually', given the generic meaning of that phrase.

Back to the OP.

Recycled or prefabricated .... whaddya think ...?

I have already said what I think. My question to you in relation to the OPQ, where you asked "Do humans have a soul ...?", was:

Q: What are you meaning when you ask?

There seem to be a number of ideas as to 'what is a soul', and recycled or prefabricated are not the only options.

My own understanding (already given) is that souls are neither, and that is based upon my particular metaphysical philosophy where the essence of the individual consciousness has always existed, and always will.

[StuartJ]

[Replying to post 23 by William]

my particular metaphysical philosophy where the essence of the individual consciousness has always existed, and always will.

This doesn't look like "philosophy" to me ...

It looks like make-believe ...

Of course, if you can back it up ...?

And - as many non-rationalists tell us here - everything that exists was created ...

And if this indeed so - your individual consciousnesses were pre-manufactured ...

By who or what, I wonder ...?

Still ...

When you're playing in the fantasy world of philosophical make-believe ...

Things can be just whatever you imagine them to be.

[StuartJ]

[Replying to post 22 by ttruscott]

A society of spirits without a physical universe would mature in the areas of mathematics, poetic expressions of thought and adding the nuances of timing, cadence and accent to the poetry would bring them to the realm of mental singing.

I think you just made that up ...

In your imagination.

I suggest you imagined a "society of spirits" ( don't know of any real ones)

And then YOU decided how this society of spirits WOULD mature.

All this is only happening inside your head ... I suggest.

And - I further suggest - this is where gods and angels and souls exist ...

Inside the heads of imaginative humans ...

Certain of whom have difficulty differentiating between imaginality and reality

Happy to be wrong.

[William]

[Replying to post 24 by StuartJ]

This doesn't look like "philosophy" to me ...

All in the subjective eye of the beholder Stuart. Besides, I wrote "metaphysical philosophy" and indeed, the OP subject falls into that category.

It looks like make-believe ...

Things are not always as they appear Stuart. My understanding of 'what is the soul' comes from studying various beliefs about that and from there forming the picture I have.

Of course, if you can back it up ...?

Oldie and a goody. I have covered such arguments oft enough on this forum that links and copy and paste are the best time-saving functions to adopt as reply.

Burden of Proof - The scientific way to examine "verifiable evidence"

Demanding unspecified evidence to prove that the metaphysical does exist, is fallacy.

In relation to the OP and questions in the blurb, evidence is not mentioned anyway Stuart, so complaining for it seems contrary anyway.

My standard question to such demands is to ask the one demanding to explain to me what they would settle for as constituting evidence...in this case, evidence for the existence of 'the soul'.

Normally the response lacks even any attempts to give examples, and I do not see that changing any time soon.

But perhaps in you we shall find an anomaly, Stuart!

And - as many [strike]non-rationalists[/strike] other members of this message board tell us here - everything that exists was created ...

(ftfy)

My own understanding is that anything which has a beginning was created. I go further as to think of it as simulation.

As per my own developing metaphysical philosophy Stuart, it holds that all consciousness are aspects of First Source Consciousness [FSC] and in that, have never had a beginning as FSC has always and ever will exist.

Thus, we were not 'created' but rather the forms we occupy for the experience, are. It is through the experience of form that we get to experience beginnings and ends.

And if this indeed so - your individual consciousnesses were pre-manufactured ...

See my above explanation.

When you're playing in the fantasy world of philosophical make-believe ...

Things can be just whatever you imagine them to be.

Condescending Ideas About Imagination

I think this holds some truth, based on my own studies of OOBEs NDEs but that is a deeper subject which cannot be breached easily by those who believe they are products of that fatty thing in the skull of the human form.

Even subjects to do with 'what is the soul' are largely off limits to such thinkers, and that is their own choosing.

[Jagella]

your thoughts CAN exist without you installing them in remote devices

No, our thoughts need "remote devices" commonly referred to as "brains." But if you dispute this obvious fact, then you are free to try to demonstrate otherwise.

...bodies give souls meaning, and so they cannot become 'souls' without them

But can't souls or spirits have "meaning" of their own that bodies do not have? Assuming you believe in the Bible god, he is supposedly a disembodied mind, and you probably believe he has very profound meaning including good and bad, pleasure and pain--all without a body!

Anyway, it's so much easier just to dispense with all this nonsense about spirits and just face the obvious fact that our minds are nothing more than what our brains do. Nobody has ever demonstrated that any mind can exist without a brain. Minds, like brains, die and are forever gone.

[Guy Threepwood]

But can't souls or spirits have "meaning" of their own that bodies do not have? Assuming you believe in the Bible god, he is supposedly a disembodied mind, and you probably believe he has very profound meaning including good and bad, pleasure and pain--all without a body!

Same goes for a human soul's existence in heaven, we would not have physical bodies as we understand them, but we would have had the knowledge/experience of a physical existence which is necessary to know good from evil.

So too for God, (I believe), he would obviously have knowledge of a physical existence (having created one) , & us in his image.

Anyway, it's so much easier just to dispense with all this nonsense about spirits

easier? yes! the easiest explanation is always the most tempting, but what regard has reality shown for Occam's razor so far!?

and just face the obvious fact that our minds are nothing more than what our brains do. Nobody has ever demonstrated that any mind can exist without a brain. Minds, like brains, die and are forever gone.

which is what a smart phone would appear to be to Charles Darwin, a miraculous self contained device with no need for some external 'ephemeral cloud' of knowledge being invisibly communicated- that concept was still firmly in the realm of supernatural pseudoscience in the Victorian age- when your argument was not yet disproven in principle

Again though, when we can and do remotely store and preserve memories beyond their physical presence, to the extent that technology allows us to exercise that will..

So why do you think that God either could not or would not do likewise? he doesn't have the know-how? the budget?? What is the logical rationale behind that assumption?

[SallyF]

[Replying to post 1 by StuartJ]

Stuart ...You asked the question

What is your own answer to it please ?

Mine is it's just our consciousness that evaporates when we die

It would be nice to believe it soars above as our own proof of being once alive on

earth .... but nobody really knows ...

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 22 by ttruscott]

A society of spirits without a physical universe would mature in the areas of mathematics, poetic expressions of thought and adding the nuances of timing, cadence and accent to the poetry would bring them to the realm of mental singing.

I think you just made that up ... In your imagination. I suggest you imagined a "society of spirits" ( don't know of any real ones) And then YOU decided how this society of spirits WOULD mature.

Of course I made it up - I don't remember what it was like, nor did I get a revelation! But I believe it happened and so I thought a lot about what that would logically imply about our growth as a society...and this is what I came up with. So when someone said life as a spirit without a body was devoid of substance, I shared my thoughts.

Lack of imagination as a virtue....hmmmm.