Democracy is Unbiblical

[StuartJ]

In the biblical folklore, some of the millions of folks in the mixed multitude wandering in the wilderness objected to the dictatorship of Moses and his sidekick Aaron:

They gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said unto them, Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and Yahweh is among them: wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the congregation of Yahweh?

The probably fictional Moses and the sidekick he would later defrock, were none too pleased.

But the definitely fictional Yahweh had it sorted:

And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods. They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation. And all Israel that were round about them fled at the cry of them: for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up also.
And there came out a fire from Yahweh, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.

So, there we have it ... Yahweh wants HIS chosen dictator to be running the show in HIS name ...

And he'll have the earth swallow those with notions of democracy.

(I can't see how you can possibly read philosophy, or poetry, or love into this nasty little tale either, BTW. It looks like more human politics to me.)

And for centuries, Christian popes were sure that THEY should be ruling the world in Jesus' mighty name ... but only until he comes back with more fire and hail mixed with blood.

So, should we set Pope Francis, or Benny Hinn, or Pat Robertson (a woman would NEVER do) or some other senior white male over us as Theocrat ... as the "Word of God" quite clearly intends ...?

[JehovahsWitness]

it's not like in the post armageddon world people can just talk to God directly or anything! No, they'd have to go through channels, an appeals process, like with courts today...

Are you under the impression if people want to "talk to God" today they go to a court? To my knowledge if people want to talk to God they pray.

• PRAYER is considered, at least in the Jehovahs Witness belief system, as communication with God. I personally have never approach any court or adminstration to pray and don't believe this will change in the new system.

CHANNEL OF COMMUNICATION WITH GOD

• Jehovah's Witnesses do believe however that prayer should rightly be offered through Jesus, we don't pray *TO* Jesus but we do pray in recognition of his (Jesus) role in salvation. This however is because we are presently imperfect, eventually, when the meek reach a perfect state of existence our talks with God will no longer have to go through Jesus.

JW



RELATED POSTS

What did Jesus teach about prayer?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 441#885441

[JehovahsWitness]

There'll be legislation, so there'd have to be some sort of people who'd do something if or when a law is violated, if God himself isn't getting involved.

Did I say anything to imply that God won't be involved in GOD'S own Government? If you look back to my post # 49 you will see I stated the following:

For thousands of years Christians have been praying "thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth..." . What people are actually praying for is for God's HEAVENLY GOVERNMENT meaning a government headed by Jesus, located in heaven to take control of this our planet earth. Only then, will the meek finally inherit the earth as promised, and be able to live in the conditions God originally wanted for humans.

The Government I am talking about is called "God's Kingdom" ie it belongs and is headed by God as the supreme ruler of the universe. True he has delegated authority to Jesus and his co-rulers but they are administrating on His (GODS) behalf, they are doing what he instructs them, he has a direct hand in who is selected, what positions they hold and reserves the right to intervene at any time for any reason.

But if God were to get involved and deal with these issues, then there'd be no point for legislation.

Could you explain why you make this conclusion?



JW




NOTE All posts I write represent my personal faith based beliefs as one of Jehovah's Witnesses

[JehovahsWitness]

JW ...can't use an analogy.

ANALOGY

a comparison between one thing and another, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification.

I do believe I have been using analogies throughout this exchange; comparing various features of the biblical KINGDOM of God with those in present day governments. [*] That's not to say it is exactly the same in every detail[/u], but I have been taking various details we are familiar with in government and administrations today, and comparing them (used the analogy) to what the bible reveals about the structure and function of Divine government (Jehovahs Witneses believe Gods Kingdom is in fact a heavenly government of 144,000 individuals headed by Jesus himself, ruling on God's behalf).

- One analogy could be that the kingdom of God can be compared to a constitutional monarchy such as exists in the United Kingdom

- Another analogy is that the bible and any future documents provided under kingdom rule could be compared to a national constitution and various laws that countries have today.

- Regarding the Govenment being located in heaven, that could be compared to the American central government being located in Washington.

- The Angels could be compared to a nation's armed forces

- The human administrators could be compared to Civil Servants

This 3 min video (What is Gods Kingdom?) uses more analogies...
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/book ... gdom-come/


RELATED POSTS

Can the Kingdom really be compared structurally to a real government?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 759#883759

[Bust Nak]

Murderous death cult confirmed... This cult wants their god to do all the killing for them.

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[JehovahsWitness]

So there will be legislation passed, but no police, no judges, no crime.

There will be judges, whose primary role will be to help citizens understand and comform to divine law. Indeed the entire period is biblically called "judgement day". Jesus promised his Apostles they would one day sit on thrones and judge. Since everyone will have already been judged as "meek" (having shown themselves happy to conform to divine law), there will be no need for a police force. No individuals that threaten the peace and security of its citizens will be allowed to live.

Only the meek will survive.

Yes that is correct.

... There'll be legislation, so there'd have to be some sort of people who'd do something if or when a law is violated...

That is correct.

There will have to be a careful managing of what I can only presume are finite resources

That is correct.

There will be officials of various ranks, who will take up administrative duties like in governments of today

That is correct

... it's not like in the post armageddon world people can just talk to God directly or anything! No, they'd have to go through channels, an appeals process, like with courts today...

That is incorrect, Just like millions of people do today people will be able to talk to God in prayer at any time without seeking a permit or petitioning first from any a court or administrative body.




JW


RELATED POSTS

Can the Kingdom really be compared structurally to a real government?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 759#883759



NOTE All posts I write represent my personal faith based beliefs as one of Jehovah's Witnesses

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 51 by JehovahsWitness]

Are you under the impression if people want to "talk to God" today they go to a court? To my knowledge if people want to talk to God they pray.

No. You missed my point entirely. My point is that in your post-armageddon world...why have a government at all, if people can just talk to God directly? God could then solve any issues that normally, in the real world, require a government to solve.

Did I say anything to imply that God won't be involved in GOD'S own Government? If you look back to my post # 49 you will see I stated the following:

So why the laws coming from human legislators? Or are all laws coming directly from God, thus making a legislature obsolete?

True he has delegated authority to Jesus and his co-rulers but they are administrating on His (GODS) behalf, they are doing what he instructs them, he has a direct hand in who is selected, what positions they hold and reserves the right to intervene at any time for any reason.

The main reason one delegates is if they are unable to perform the task themselves, or if they have only so much time and ability to spare. My boss for example is trained in every operation of the department we are in, can pinch in if needed, but to ensure smooth sailing, delegates most roles to other employees. If my boss could take over all those tasks to the same level of productivity and efficiency as what we have now with delegated employees, there wouldn't be other employees. It would just be my boss...but my boss can't do that. My boss isn't a magical god.

I do believe I have been using analogies throughout this exchange; comparing various features of the biblical KINGDOM of God with those in present day governments.

Your analogies keep breaking down, when I try to apply them to the real world. For example, you say the angels are like the nation's armed forces. Except, in the post armageddon world...what would be the point of an army of angels? Who are they supposed to fight? Who is the external aggressor the army is suppose to protect against? Would they be instead directed at putting down internal rebellions/civil wars? But that can't be it either since you said the only people left alive would be the meek, the followers of the one true religion who obey God's laws...Is this army of angels then supposed to be a disaster response unit, as armies sometimes do? But in the post armageddon world, humans have perfect bodies, don't suffer sickness or injury...

As I said, your analogies and claims keep breaking down when thought about for longer than two seconds.

but I have been taking various details we are familiar with in government and administrations today, and comparing them (used the analogy) to what the bible reveals about the structure and function of Divine government

If there is a really real God around, with all the abilities he is purported to have, then government(s) would be superfluous. You wouldn't need to go through administration to get something done, any two JWs in this post armageddon world if faced with a quandary would just talk to God and obey his instructions. There'd be no need to talk to the Sub Vice Chair of Internal Affairs (a title I just made up for the sake of argument). Why would anyone bother with a priest/king/official when they can just pray/talk to God himself directly?

How is the Bible like a constitution? Constitutions are able to be modified, through a democratic vote. See? Your analogies keep breaking down.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 55 by JehovahsWitness]

There will be judges,

Oh there will be? Why say, numerous times (if I recall correctly) that there wouldn't?

whose primary role will be to help citizens understand and comform to divine law.

Why is God delegating this task when he can do it himself?

Jesus promised his Apostles they would one day sit on thrones and judge.

This doesn't strike you as perhaps a bit of pandering to a human's base desire for power?

Since everyone will have already been judged as "meek" (having shown themselves happy to conform to divine law), there will be no need for a police force. No individuals that threaten the peace and security of its citizens will be allowed to live.

No police force, but still a body of laws. So what happens if somebody violates one of these laws? Do the apostle judges execute the offenders themselves?

me - "There will have to be a careful managing of what I can only presume are finite resources"

That is correct.

So such a world cannot exist forever then. Eventually finite resources run out - that's what the word means! Unless you're now going to say your God and/or Jesus just conjures more resources into existence?

That is incorrect, Just like millions of people do today people will be able to talk to God in prayer at any time without seeking a permit or petitioning first from any a court or administrative body.

So what would be the point of the administrative bodies then? If people are meek, if they follow God's laws, if they are able to talk to God directly...what would be the point of going through a government first, if ever there's a problem? Just clap your hands together, get God on the ol' spiritual speed-dial and hash it out with Big J.

me - "There'll be legislation, so there'd have to be some sort of people who'd do something if or when a law is violated, if God himself isn't getting involved. But if God were to get involved and deal with these issues, then there'd be no point for legislation.
"
JW

That is correct

...wha...? So there WOULDN'T be legislation? There WOULD have to be a police force, some group who get involved when a law is violated?

That's it. I'm out. Sound of door slamming

[JehovahsWitness]

JUDGEMENT - NOTE All posts I write represent my personal faith based beliefs as one of Jehovah's Witnesses

Did I say anything to imply that God won't be involved in GOD'S own Government? If you look back to my post # 49 you will see I stated the following:

So why the laws coming from human legislators?

Have you read in any of my posts the legislators will be human? We are talking about GODS kingdom government; all legislation, direction, standards and organizational procedures will originate with God. He has authorized Jesus and 1400,000 co-rulers (former humans resurrected to be spirit beings (like angels) to live and work in heaven) to exercise power on His behalf, but no human will have any authority to make any global decisions or devise worldwide legislation.

The bible indicates there will be human representatives of the Kingdom Government, administrators if you like a bit like civil servants today (I just used an analogy) but those that judge and rule will be spirit beings, not human.

Why is God delegating this task when he can do it himself?

ANSWER
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 619#878619

Since everyone will have already been judged as "meek" (having shown themselves happy to conform to divine law), there will be no need for a police force. No individuals that threaten the peace and security of its citizens will be allowed to live.

No police force, but still a body of laws. So what happens if somebody violates one of these laws? Do the apostle judges execute the offenders themselves?

I should think it would be very rare for someone that has witnessed Jesus destroy the entire system and be positively judged as righteous to resort to the kind of behaviour that would require such measures, much less such behaviour from faithful men and women of old who will be resurrected to join them livjng here on this planet earth. Still, the bible is full of examples what happens to those that willfully defy theocratic rule.

I do believe that the OP refers to the Korathite rebellion. If someone does have a mind to reintroduce the odious crime of child abuse or threaten some other behaviour that would cause suffering, either God himself or one of his apponted agents (Jesus, or his corulers) will take needed measures. The bible is quite clear there will be nobody to cause the righteous any harm.

There will be judges,

Oh there will be? Why say, numerous times (if I recall correctly) that there wouldn't?

Perhaps you would be so kind as to find the post(s) you are refering to so I can clarify.



JW




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What is "judgement day"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 404#872404

[JehovahsWitness]

.. you say the angels are like the nation's armed forces. Except, in the post armageddon world...what would be the point of an army of angels?

Armed forces: Most countries have an army to defend the interests of its citizens.




An army ensures national (in this case) globale security. God's "army" of angels under the command of Jesus, fought Satan and his demons at Armageddon. The outcome is prophecied that Satan will be imprisoned but not destroyed. After 1000 years he (Satan) will once again be freed so Jesus must keep his own forces for what will eventually once more come to a head between Satan and any that join him.

Not all countries have standing armies. Some countries have trained (reserved) forces that can be deployed if necessary, but no standing army. After the Messianic kingdom has achieved all its goals the angels can be deployed for other tasks or reintegrigrated as "civilians", living and enjoying life as part of God's family as He originally intended.


RELATED POSTS

Can the Kingdom really be compared structurally to a real government?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 759#883759




NOTE All posts I write represent my personal faith based beliefs as one of Jehovah's Witnesses

[JehovahsWitness]

"There will have to be a careful managing of what I can only presume are finite resources ... Eventually finite resources run out - that's what the word means! Unless you're now going to say your God and/or Jesus just conjures more resources into existence?

Finite doesn't mean "run out"

FINITE

limited in size or extent.

Finite sources means there is the potential for them to run out, if they are not replenished. The earth does a wonderful job of replenishing its resources but there are still limits in size and capacity.

Unless you're now going to say your God and/or Jesus just conjures more resources into existence?

Was there a part of omnipotent you were having a problem grasping? Maybe I wasn't clear, this government is GOD'S government. Everything that it achieves will be sources from Him. In other words, Almighty God will express his infinite, unlimited powers and abilities for those that love him.

Jesus miracles were a small demonstration of what God is capable of doing. Do you recall the bible account of a crowd of about 5000 men (possibly totalling 10, 000 people or more if we count any women and children that might have been present) being fed by what was originally just 5 loaves of bread and three fishes. I think that shows what God can do when it comes to replenishing limited resources.

Bible believing Christians have no reason to worry they will run out resources in paradise!




JW


NOTE All posts I write represent my personal faith based beliefs as one of Jehovah's Witnesses