Is Faith Useful?

[ElCodeMonkey]

I'm currently reading "The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion" and the author is discussing the concept of morality and how people simply "feel" certain things are immoral. For example, if someone cuts up an American flag and uses it as rags to clean their toilet. To many, this "feels" very wrong. They will straight up say it is wrong. Morally wrong, even. But trying to ask why, it comes down to "disrespect" for the flag, perhaps, but what does that even mean? The flag has no feelings. The toilet needs cleaned. The flag was otherwise unused, etc, etc. There is no harm here. There is simply a "feeling" that it is wrong. It is very akin to faith. Faith simply "tells" you things. But someone from some remote tribe in an uncivilized part of the world would likely say there is nothing wrong with the flag-cutting and rag-using. Their "feeling" or their "faith" would lead them a different direction. Is this a good comparison to what faith is and is there anything useful to be had with it? Should such things always come back to logic and reasoning such that cutting the flag and using as rags should be 100% acceptable if we can't nail down an exact logical reason not to? Or is there value in these gut-feeling "faith" ideas?

[JehovahsWitness]

Or is there value in these gut-feeling "faith" ideas?

One should not assert something is wrong if one is incapable of explaining why that is the case.
One should not assert one's faith is true without being able to explain why you hold this belief.

1 PETER 3:15 -NWT

Always ready to make a defense before everyone who demands of you a reason for the hope you have

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS




RELATED P0STS

What is faith (definition)?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 479#904479

How can we be sure the bible is true?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 255#840255

[William]

[Replying to post 1 by ElCodeMonkey]

One might have to look into why someone may be offended, and also why being offended would have anything to do with faith.

Do people have faith in the actual flag or can this be traced to what the flag is supposed to represent and therefore the use of the flag for the purpose you example is seen to disrespect what the flag symbolizes.

As to 'faith', one then could look at what the symbolism is about to determine if indeed faith is an aspect or even the dominating aspect of the symbolism. One may indeed discover this to be the case.

If so, then one could argue all one likes as to the fact that 'it is just a flag and no one need be offended by the act of you cleaning a toilet with it', as it would not make any difference to those who have faith in the symbolism that the flag represents and your arguments would have no effect on that outcome. They would not get into any debate with you on the matter or consider your argument in any way legitimate and may even think that your actions were not just an offence against the faith in the symbolism, but also a personal offence against them.

Certainly this appears to me to be the result of faith-based beliefs. There is no actual debating them.

[bjs]

To the general question:
Speaking only from my own experience I recommend taking what we feel seriously, at least for our own lives. I have found that when something feels wrong but we dont have a logical explanation as to why it is wrong, this is usually because we are trying to rationalize our actions. We can rationalize almost anything on a cognitive level. Often what we feel is the part of us that knows that we are rationalizing trying to assert itself, and it should not be dismissed lightly.

Concerning the issue of the flag:
I can understand someone being offended by using a flag in that manner. The goal of the person who cut up the flag was to insult and hurt other people. There is no reasonable possibility that cutting up a flag is the most efficient and cost effect method of cleaning a toilet. If that was done, it was done specifically because of the symbolic statement being made. The goal of cleaning a toilet with a flag would be to offend and insult those who place symbolic importance on the flag.

Now it could be argued that an emotional statement was the only way to get the point across, and so insulting others was necessary. That may be so, though most likely such an offensive act would overshadow any underlying message. The insult might not be the main goal, but the insult was there. Intentionally insulting people tends to upset them and is an unkind act.

[William]

[Replying to post 4 by bjs]

To the general question:
Speaking only from my own experience I recommend taking what we feel seriously, at least for our own lives. I have found that when something feels wrong but we dont have a logical explanation as to why it is wrong, this is usually because we are trying to rationalize our actions. We can rationalize almost anything on a cognitive level. Often what we feel is the part of us that knows that we are rationalizing trying to assert itself, and it should not be dismissed lightly.

Speaking from my own experience, what I have come to understand as true, is that these 'things which feel wrong' but are not so easy to identify a source to, can often be identified as indoctrination which occurred long before we reached a point where we could be able to rationally think for ourselves.
The indoctrination usually includes educating individuals away from the natural enough ability to reason as an individual by instilling in the individual the idea that the individuals natural enough ability to reason is not to be trusted when the alternative (to trust the group mentality through symbolic objects created for that purpose) is the better option.

In the case of America and the SSB - learning at an early age to place ones hand over the heart area and pledge allegiance to 'The Greatest Nation on Earth' and all the expectation involved with that symbolism has the exact same affect. Any temptation to rationalize will most likely end up with the individual being noticed as different and since humans understand the dangers associated with being in such a position, the natural tendency to think rationally is suppressed, because such feelings have probable consequences which are unpleasant - usually too unpleasant to contemplate.

Concerning the issue of the flag:
I can understand someone being offended by using a flag in that manner. The goal of the person who cut up the flag was to insult and hurt other people. There is no reasonable possibility that cutting up a flag is the most efficient and cost effect method of cleaning a toilet. If that was done, it was done specifically because of the symbolic statement being made. The goal of cleaning a toilet with a flag would be to offend and insult those who place symbolic importance on the flag.

I think this is relevant to a point. The goal of the individual doing so might well include trying to shock people out of their complacency due to their indoctrination, in an effort to trigger their individual natural tendency to think rationally, however, the action in itself - even based on that motivation - lacks full use of said rationality because it does not take into account enough that the likely consequences will not be what one wishes to accomplish anyway.

IOW, thinking one can shock people out of their indoctrinated paradigm through such method is irrational.

However, for the individual, the symbolic act of cutting up the flag and using it to clean the toilet may assist them in breaking free of their own indoctrination which they have come to understand through using their individual natural tendency to think rationally, and done privately will prevent any offence to others.
Even so, the individual will still have to deal with the public in relation to other activities to do with this indoctrination, such as standing - hand over heart - when the national anthem is sung, etc - because people will be offended...which leads to...

Now it could be argued that an emotional statement was the only way to get the point across, and so insulting others was necessary. That may be so, though most likely such an offensive act would overshadow any underlying message. The insult might not be the main goal, but the insult was there. Intentionally insulting people tends to upset them and is an unkind act.

How is one to navigate between taking a stand for the sake of supporting the natural tendency to think rationally as an individual and the very real possibility that others will take offence because of this?
One has to also understand that people use offence to become the pseudo-victims of others who are 'not like them' and such offence is not only irrational (based as it is, on indoctrination rather than rationality) but such is also a technique of a type of passive aggressiveness. They would rather assume being insulted - and act on that -than they would, question the validity of that which indoctrinated their minds to the point where they don't have to engage with critical thinking and the natural tendency to think rationally as individuals.

[Divine Insight]

I personally don't see how the content of the OP has anything at all to do with the concept of faith.

The analogy of respecting a national flag has nothing to do with faith as far as I can see. The same is true about how people "feel" about things. Emotion does not equal faith.

In terms of the analogy of respecting a national flag, this all boils down to what the flag represents to each individual. Whether people respect the flag amounts to how much they respect what the flag represents.

For me, in the USA, the flag represent the USA, period. That's what it represents. Although even this is a murky representation.

For example, our current president and his administration is a total embarrassment for me. I totally reject his "values" and I also reject his policies. Therefore if the flag represents our leadership, then I would have no problem tearing a flag up and using it to clean out my toilet. Because this is what I think about our current leadership. I am currently ashamed to be an American if America is represented by our President and his policies. Our flag currently deserves to be flushed into a sewer.

However, to a military family who lost a loved one to active service the flag may very well represent their lost loved one and his or her service to protect our freedom and democracy.

Therefore, I can certainly understand that if these people saw me using a US Flag to clean out my toilet they might scream at me! That's my SON you are disrespecting! Or that's my DAUGHTER you are disrespecting!

That's makes perfect sense. I see the flag as representing our current establishment (which I feel is disgusting), while they see the flag as representing their loved ones.

Other people also may see the US Flag as representing their philosophical ideal of what America "should" stand for. Never mind that the current administration is a total disgrace, hopeful the USA will survive this administration and move on to this higher imagined philosophical ideal. So in this case the Flag represents an imagined philosophical ideal.

So the flag really has little, if anything, to do with faith, and much more to do with what a person imagines that it represents.

I'm not currently proud of the USA with our current administration. I can tell you that much. So for me, the flag does not represent anything respectable at the moment. Hopefully that will change in the future.

Although, I can sympathize with those who view the flag as being symbolic of what we would philosophical like for the USA to represent. If I allow it to represents that, then of course I'm going to respect. But then we currently have a flag that is being disgraced by our very own President. IMHO, he's the one who has placed our flag in the toilet. So perhaps those who respect our flag should be enraged with our current president. Not those who honorably take a knee to protest against police violence on a national level. At least they are standing up for an important issue. Donald Trump has flushed our flag right down the toilet for no good reason.

This is all obviously a political issue as well, and not a faith issue at all.

[Overcomer]

I don't think faith is merely a matter of utility. It's part of life. We all have faith in things -- faith the sun will rise tomorrow, faith that our cars will start every morning, faith that the bus will arrive on time, faith that our spouses are true to us, faith that our teacher will give our work the mark it deserves, faith that our boss will okay the proposal we submitted, faith that the Toronto Maple Leafs will win the Stanley Cup this year (well, okay, maybe that's a big stretch!!!). The point is, all of life involves faith on a daily basis.

When it comes to faith, what matters is the object of that faith. Is the object trustworthy? For example, is the woman justified in believing her husband isn't cheating on her? Is he worthy of that faith? Am I right to believe that my boss is going to approve my work? Do I know her well enough to assume that I have done things according to her wishes?

William Clifford published an essay entitled The Ethics of Belief in the late 19th-century. He spoke of our obligation to investigate what we believe to make sure that it warrants our belief. He argued that even the most innocuous of beliefs should be considered seriously, that we owe it to ourselves and to each other because no man is an island. The article is here for those who care to read it:

http://people.brandeis.edu/~teuber/Clifford_ethics.pdf

However, I don't really see how the issue of faith has anything to do with whether it's right to use a national flag as a cleaning rag or whether one's feelings should dictate one's morality which is what the OP started out with. If I have to try to make a connection between faith and feeling, I would say that, while blind faith may be a matter of feeling, warranted faith is a matter of using logic and reasoning to reach valid conclusions.

And certainly experience plays a role as I may trust my professor to give me an A because of my experience with her in the past. I know what she is looking for in an essay and I know I have provided it. But again, we're talking about using cognitive abilities based on that experience. I'm using faith with regard to her, but my faith is well-placed given our past history.

[StuartJ]

[Replying to post 7 by Overcomer]

We all have faith in things -- faith the sun will rise tomorrow,

A logical and reasonable expectation, based on independently verifiable evidence and experience.

Not to be compared with the faith that Jesus will hand us the keys to a mansion in Heaven ...

Or the faith that Jesus died for our sins and came back to life again.

For these we have no independently verifiable evidence and no experience ...

And they appear as illogical and unreasonable as faith in Santa sliding down the chimney, or any other fantastical human imaginings.

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 7 by Overcomer]

We all have faith in things -- faith the sun will rise tomorrow, faith that our cars will start every morning, faith that the bus will arrive on time, faith that our spouses are true to us, faith that our teacher will give our work the mark it deserves, faith that our boss will okay the proposal we submitted, faith that the Toronto Maple Leafs will win the Stanley Cup this year (well, okay, maybe that's a big stretch!!!). The point is, all of life involves faith on a daily basis.

What you are describing is confidence based on prior experience of the actual events under consideration. It is not the same as religious faith where something like the existence of God has no experience to provide compelling reasons to accept it as true.

[ElCodeMonkey]

[Replying to post 6 by Divine Insight]

I think people are getting too caught up by the flag concept. I merely used it as an example of something we'd "feel" was wrong but have little reason associate with it. Perhaps a better example would be eating your pet dog after someone ran it over. It "feels" wrong, but it's nearly impossible to explain. You could say it's "disrespectful" to the dog, but clearly it's now an inanimate object. Still, we "believe" it's wrong without a great explanation and something you feel without proper explanation is the same as faith, no?