Brainwashed ...

[StuartJ]

Brainwashing (also known as mind control, menticide, coercive persuasion, thought control, thought reform, and re-education) is the concept that the human mind can be altered or controlled by certain psychological techniques.

Brainwashing is said to reduce its subject’s ability to think critically or independently,[1] to allow the introduction of new, unwanted thoughts and ideas into the subject’s mind,[2] as well as to change his or her attitudes, values, and beliefs.[3][4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainwashing

Is this an accurate description of religion ...?

[FWI]

[Replying to post 51 by Tcg]

All it shows is that 80% who dropout of organized religion, return to it at some point. This says nothing about atheists returning to religion.

Well, you look at the article from your point of view and I look at it from mine…

The title of the article is: "No one knows why atheists return to religion." So, to believe that the atheists are not the focus of the article would be incorrect.

However, the study also "strongly" suggests that church disengagement is a temporary, rather than a permanent stage in one's life. As well as, the reality that it's far more common for religious people to become atheists, than it is for non-believers to find God. The article also claims that social and governmental issues play an important role. It certainly is easier to become an activist, when things are going smoothly, but when reality and troubles come into the picture, most (about 80%) will seek a safe haven…We've seen this in the "hippie or counterculture" stage of our history. Yet, today most have grown-up and become more like the rest of the people around their age group, in society. Mainly, because (most) became parents/grandparents and becoming these surely can be a life-changing event (only those who are parents/grandparents know this). However, each generation goes through these types of changes or rebellion to the "norm of things" and it isn't until many years later that balance returns among them. Hence, history tells us that it's probable to happen again, to this generation…

[Tcg]

[Replying to post 51 by Tcg]

All it shows is that 80% who dropout of organized religion, return to it at some point. This says nothing about atheists returning to religion.

Well, you look at the article from your point of view and I look at it from mine…

I was addressing your inaccurate claim:

There was a gallop poll (in 1978) which claimed that of those who left religion for atheism, about 80% returned back to religion, later in life.

The gallop poll shows nothing of the kind and in fact doesn't refer to atheists at all. It is not a matter of opinion. I have stated a clear fact.

[RedEye]

I will certainly go to another thread to discuss if Jesus is a myth. The point of this discussion is about brainwashing, which has developed to a discussion about critical thinking... I am challenging the idea that atheism encourages critical thinking...

How are you challenging it? By your opinion only?

Id like you to prove you think critically about your beliefs, in this case "Jesus is a myth"... You really believe that, right? And you believe its becuase you think critically about the subject, right?

That's correct. How would I be able to prove it to you?

My belief that Jesus is a myth starts with these observations:

1) No contemporary secular evidence of his existence. There were plenty of historians around and if Jesus had a fraction of the following which is attributed to him, someone should have noticed and recorded it.

2) The first person who mentions him (Saul/Paul) barely knows a single personal detail about the alleged life of Jesus. Not one parable and no Jesus as a teacher at all. Jesus performed no miracles according to Paul. No virgin birth, no Sermon on the Mount, no feeding the 5000, no public ministry, no cleansing the temple, no final words, and no Great Commission. Paul doesn’t even place Jesus within history --- there’s nothing to connect Jesus with historical figures like Caesar Augustus, King Herod, or Pontius Pilate.

3) The stories about Jesus become ever more elaborate as time goes on. First we have gMark which is relatively concise (no birth narrative and no resurrection). Then gMatthew adds more detail. Then gLuke adds even more detail. This is classical myth-making where the story evolves and new details are tacked on as time passes.

4) Most of what passes as Jesus stories is lifted straight out of preexisting Jewish and pagan Greco-Roman literature and thought. The material is just reworked and attributed to Jesus. When all of that is stripped away, there is barely anything left that is original in any way.

And I could go on and on. Have I thought about this critically or not?

[RedEye]

I agree, but Shives goes out of his way to prevent himself getting information, and to prevent others from getting information.

I'm not here to defend this chap as I don't know enough about him. My point is that, even if what you say is true (and I remain unconvinced that the motivation is as you claim), you can always find an exception to a rule. One example does not make your case. That's probably where I want to leave it.

[dio9]

[Replying to StuartJ]Religion

I don't know what your experience with religion has been , but the premise of your OP is mistaken, Religion is not about mind control , its about mind liberation.

[RedEye]

• Brainwashing and mind control are easiest with willing subjects or trusting ones (like children). The techniques used are often combined to induce: confusion, emotionality, righteousness, doubt, obedience, insecurity, conformity, bonding, loyalty, fear, guilt, dependence or other feelings; depending on the ultimate goal. These techniques are used to indoctrinate us into: political systems, the military, schools, prisons and, of course, cults and religions. If done correctly, the subjects of brainwashing will have no clue what’s being done to them. This is important not only for the efficacy of brainwashing programs but for ensuring they remain effective for as long as possible.
  
  Repetition and reinforcement is often necessary to maintain control, especially if the subject is not sheltered from external influences or is exposed to contrary ideas that could prompt cognitive dissonance.
  
  As is normally the case for brainwashing and mind control, it is best to indoctrinate the subject as young as possible. Children naturally trust authority figures, like parents and teachers, and are likely to accept what they’re taught as truth. Below is a list of brainwashing techniques. As you read them, some might remind you of boot camp or grade school or, in the case of religious indoctrination, of society at large. Most of us, whether we’re aware of it or not, participate in religious indoctrination by playing our part to reinforce in children – and each other – the brainwashing we’re not even aware of in ourselves. Religious indoctrination can be very deeply ingrained because society, as a whole, generally participates in it.
  
  Some common techniques (and common practitioners/subjects):
  
  1. Biological Manipulation: (Religions, prisoners, cults)
  Using food and drink for punishment and reward, eg. the Eucharist in Christainity. Using drugs (overtly or covertly) to induce emotional states or to increase susceptibility to suggestion, eg. incense burning, scented candles.
  2. Mantras, Chants, Prayers or Songs: (Religions, cults, schools, military)
  Reinforcing mottoes, dogmas or creeds through frequent, regular, repetition. Prevents thinking about other (undesirable) matters.
  3. Confession: (Religions, cults)
  Undermining identity and self-esteem by focusing on personal disappointments, errors, weaknesses and insecurities.
  4. Regression: (Cults)
  Treating subjects like children and rewarding childish behavior to encourage child-like submission and obedience.
  5. Dress Codes: (Religions, cults, military, schools)
  Normalizing conformity by visually enhancing uniformity and minimizing individuality.
  6. Emotional Bonding: (Common to all)
  Creating bonds between select people or groups by developing trust and intimacy through physical touch, sex, mentoring and attentiveness.
  7. Fear: (Common to all)
  Punishing or ridiculing any sign of disobedience or non-conformance and enforcing loyalty by threats against one’s rank, group standing or membership. May include humiliation, loss of privileges or possessions, imprisonment, ostracism or bodily harm.
  8. Severing Ties: (Religions, cults)
  Achieving increased dependence on the group by 'burning bridges' to the past, through the donation of assets.
  9. Superiority: (Religions, cults)
  Creating a false sense of righteousness by pointing to the shortcomings of the outside world.
  10. Role Play: (Cults)
  Inducing dependence on the group by introducing games with obscure rules.
  11. Shaming: (Religions, cults)
  Reinforcing the need for 'salvation' by exaggerating the sins of the former lifestyles.
  12. Hypnosis: (Religions, cults)
  Inducing a high state of suggestibility, often thinly disguised as relaxation or meditation.
  a. Repetitive Music (most likely with a beat close to the human heart 45 to 72 beats per minute): Most likely used during "study sessions" as the teacher will say the music helps you relax and concentrate better!
  b. Voice Roll: A "voice roll" is a patterned, paced style used by hypnotists when inducing a trance. It is also used by many lawyers, several of whom are highly trained hypnotists, when they desire to entrench a point firmly in the minds of the jurors. A voice roll can sound as if the speaker were talking to the beat of a metronome or it may sound as though he were emphasizing every word in a monotonous, patterned style. The words will usually be delivered at the rate of 45 to 60 beats per minute, maximizing the hypnotic effect.
  c. Room "Feel": The way a room feels is essential to hypnotizing unknowing subjects. It needs special lighting, florescent lights are best because they aren't too dim, but aren't too harsh. Also, Room Temp helps a bit, usually a little cooler than normal room temperature. You need to have the unknowing subjects very relaxed, perhaps even close to falling asleep.
  13. Isolation: (Cults, military, prisoners)
  Inducing loss of reality and/or identity by physical separation from family, friends, society and rational references.
  14. Manipulative Approval: (Cults, military, prisoners)
  Maintaining vulnerability and confusion by alternately rewarding and punishing similar actions.
  15. Subconscious Manipulation: (Religions, cults, prisoners)
  Implanting subliminal messages by stressing certain key words or phrases in long, confusing lectures.
  16. Monotony: (Religions, cults)
  Encouraging blind acceptance and rejection of logic through complex lectures on an incomprehensible doctrine.
  17. Peer Pressure: (Common to all)
  Exploiting the human need to belong to suppress doubt and resistance to new ideas.
  18. Transformation: (Religions, cults, military)
  Accelerating acceptance of new lifestyle by constantly denouncing former beliefs and values.
  19. Stupefaction: (Cults, prisoners)
  Achieving loss of ability to evaluate logically by preventing private contemplation.
  20. Sleep Deprivation and Fatigue: (Cults, military, prisoners)
  Creating disorientation and vulnerability by prolonging mental and physical activity and withholding adequate rest and sleep.
  21. Suspension of Disbelief: (Common to all)
  Accomplishing automatic acceptance of beliefs by discouraging questions.
  22. Regimentation: (Cults, prisoners)
  Inducing regression and disorientation by soliciting agreement to seemingly simple rules which regulate mealtimes, bathroom breaks and use of medications.
  23. Abuse: (Cults, military, prisoners)
  Desensitizing through bombardment with foul and abusive language, physical distress or torture.
  
  Well over half of these techniques (I count 15) are used by religions and all of them are used by cults.

[Tcg]

• Brainwashing and mind control are easiest with willing subjects or trusting ones (like children). The techniques used are often combined to induce: confusion, emotionality, righteousness, doubt, obedience, insecurity, conformity, bonding, loyalty, fear, guilt, dependence or other feelings; depending on the ultimate goal. These techniques are used to indoctrinate us into: political systems, the military, schools, prisons and, of course, cults and religions. If done correctly, the subjects of brainwashing will have no clue what’s being done to them. This is important not only for the efficacy of brainwashing programs but for ensuring they remain effective for as long as possible.
  
  Repetition and reinforcement is often necessary to maintain control, especially if the subject is not sheltered from external influences or is exposed to contrary ideas that could prompt cognitive dissonance.
  
  As is normally the case for brainwashing and mind control, it is best to indoctrinate the subject as young as possible. Children naturally trust authority figures, like parents and teachers, and are likely to accept what they’re taught as truth. Below is a list of brainwashing techniques. As you read them, some might remind you of boot camp or grade school or, in the case of religious indoctrination, of society at large. Most of us, whether we’re aware of it or not, participate in religious indoctrination by playing our part to reinforce in children – and each other – the brainwashing we’re not even aware of in ourselves. Religious indoctrination can be very deeply ingrained because society, as a whole, generally participates in it.
  
  Some common techniques (and common practitioners/subjects):
  
  1. Biological Manipulation: (Religions, prisoners, cults)
  Using food and drink for punishment and reward, eg. the Eucharist in Christainity. Using drugs (overtly or covertly) to induce emotional states or to increase susceptibility to suggestion, eg. incense burning, scented candles.
  2. Mantras, Chants, Prayers or Songs: (Religions, cults, schools, military)
  Reinforcing mottoes, dogmas or creeds through frequent, regular, repetition. Prevents thinking about other (undesirable) matters.
  3. Confession: (Religions, cults)
  Undermining identity and self-esteem by focusing on personal disappointments, errors, weaknesses and insecurities.
  4. Regression: (Cults)
  Treating subjects like children and rewarding childish behavior to encourage child-like submission and obedience.
  5. Dress Codes: (Religions, cults, military, schools)
  Normalizing conformity by visually enhancing uniformity and minimizing individuality.
  6. Emotional Bonding: (Common to all)
  Creating bonds between select people or groups by developing trust and intimacy through physical touch, sex, mentoring and attentiveness.
  7. Fear: (Common to all)
  Punishing or ridiculing any sign of disobedience or non-conformance and enforcing loyalty by threats against one’s rank, group standing or membership. May include humiliation, loss of privileges or possessions, imprisonment, ostracism or bodily harm.
  8. Severing Ties: (Religions, cults)
  Achieving increased dependence on the group by 'burning bridges' to the past, through the donation of assets.
  9. Superiority: (Religions, cults)
  Creating a false sense of righteousness by pointing to the shortcomings of the outside world.
  10. Role Play: (Cults)
  Inducing dependence on the group by introducing games with obscure rules.
  11. Shaming: (Religions, cults)
  Reinforcing the need for 'salvation' by exaggerating the sins of the former lifestyles.
  12. Hypnosis: (Religions, cults)
  Inducing a high state of suggestibility, often thinly disguised as relaxation or meditation.
  a. Repetitive Music (most likely with a beat close to the human heart 45 to 72 beats per minute): Most likely used during "study sessions" as the teacher will say the music helps you relax and concentrate better!
  b. Voice Roll: A "voice roll" is a patterned, paced style used by hypnotists when inducing a trance. It is also used by many lawyers, several of whom are highly trained hypnotists, when they desire to entrench a point firmly in the minds of the jurors. A voice roll can sound as if the speaker were talking to the beat of a metronome or it may sound as though he were emphasizing every word in a monotonous, patterned style. The words will usually be delivered at the rate of 45 to 60 beats per minute, maximizing the hypnotic effect.
  c. Room "Feel": The way a room feels is essential to hypnotizing unknowing subjects. It needs special lighting, florescent lights are best because they aren't too dim, but aren't too harsh. Also, Room Temp helps a bit, usually a little cooler than normal room temperature. You need to have the unknowing subjects very relaxed, perhaps even close to falling asleep.
  13. Isolation: (Cults, military, prisoners)
  Inducing loss of reality and/or identity by physical separation from family, friends, society and rational references.
  14. Manipulative Approval: (Cults, military, prisoners)
  Maintaining vulnerability and confusion by alternately rewarding and punishing similar actions.
  15. Subconscious Manipulation: (Religions, cults, prisoners)
  Implanting subliminal messages by stressing certain key words or phrases in long, confusing lectures.
  16. Monotony: (Religions, cults)
  Encouraging blind acceptance and rejection of logic through complex lectures on an incomprehensible doctrine.
  17. Peer Pressure: (Common to all)
  Exploiting the human need to belong to suppress doubt and resistance to new ideas.
  18. Transformation: (Religions, cults, military)
  Accelerating acceptance of new lifestyle by constantly denouncing former beliefs and values.
  19. Stupefaction: (Cults, prisoners)
  Achieving loss of ability to evaluate logically by preventing private contemplation.
  20. Sleep Deprivation and Fatigue: (Cults, military, prisoners)
  Creating disorientation and vulnerability by prolonging mental and physical activity and withholding adequate rest and sleep.
  21. Suspension of Disbelief: (Common to all)
  Accomplishing automatic acceptance of beliefs by discouraging questions.
  22. Regimentation: (Cults, prisoners)
  Inducing regression and disorientation by soliciting agreement to seemingly simple rules which regulate mealtimes, bathroom breaks and use of medications.
  23. Abuse: (Cults, military, prisoners)
  Desensitizing through bombardment with foul and abusive language, physical distress or torture.
  
  Well over half of these techniques (I count 15) are used by religions and all of them are used by cults.

This is a very informative post.

It is shocking to see this list and realize how many of these techniques can be an aspect of the religious experience.

[JehovahsWitness]

• Brainwashing and mind control are easiest with willing subjects or trusting ones (like children). The techniques used are often combined to induce: confusion, emotionality, righteousness, doubt, obedience, insecurity, conformity, bonding, loyalty, fear, guilt, dependence or other feelings; depending on the ultimate goal. These techniques are used to indoctrinate us into: political systems, the military, schools, prisons and, of course, cults and religions. If done correctly, the subjects of brainwashing will have no clue what’s being done to them. This is important not only for the efficacy of brainwashing programs but for ensuring they remain effective for as long as possible.
  
  Repetition and reinforcement is often necessary to maintain control, especially if the subject is not sheltered from external influences or is exposed to contrary ideas that could prompt cognitive dissonance.
  
  As is normally the case for brainwashing and mind control, it is best to indoctrinate the subject as young as possible. Children naturally trust authority figures, like parents and teachers, and are likely to accept what they’re taught as truth. Below is a list of brainwashing techniques. As you read them, some might remind you of boot camp or grade school or, in the case of religious indoctrination, of society at large. Most of us, whether we’re aware of it or not, participate in religious indoctrination by playing our part to reinforce in children – and each other – the brainwashing we’re not even aware of in ourselves. Religious indoctrination can be very deeply ingrained because society, as a whole, generally participates in it.
  
  Some common techniques (and common practitioners/subjects):
  
  1. Biological Manipulation: (Religions, prisoners, cults)
  Using food and drink for punishment and reward, eg. the Eucharist in Christainity. Using drugs (overtly or covertly) to induce emotional states or to increase susceptibility to suggestion, eg. incense burning, scented candles.
  2. Mantras, Chants, Prayers or Songs: (Religions, cults, schools, military)
  Reinforcing mottoes, dogmas or creeds through frequent, regular, repetition. Prevents thinking about other (undesirable) matters.
  3. Confession: (Religions, cults)
  Undermining identity and self-esteem by focusing on personal disappointments, errors, weaknesses and insecurities.
  4. Regression: (Cults)
  Treating subjects like children and rewarding childish behavior to encourage child-like submission and obedience.
  5. Dress Codes: (Religions, cults, military, schools)
  Normalizing conformity by visually enhancing uniformity and minimizing individuality.
  6. Emotional Bonding: (Common to all)
  Creating bonds between select people or groups by developing trust and intimacy through physical touch, sex, mentoring and attentiveness.
  7. Fear: (Common to all)
  Punishing or ridiculing any sign of disobedience or non-conformance and enforcing loyalty by threats against one’s rank, group standing or membership. May include humiliation, loss of privileges or possessions, imprisonment, ostracism or bodily harm.
  8. Severing Ties: (Religions, cults)
  Achieving increased dependence on the group by 'burning bridges' to the past, through the donation of assets.
  9. Superiority: (Religions, cults)
  Creating a false sense of righteousness by pointing to the shortcomings of the outside world.
  10. Role Play: (Cults)
  Inducing dependence on the group by introducing games with obscure rules.
  11. Shaming: (Religions, cults)
  Reinforcing the need for 'salvation' by exaggerating the sins of the former lifestyles.
  12. Hypnosis: (Religions, cults)
  Inducing a high state of suggestibility, often thinly disguised as relaxation or meditation.
  a. Repetitive Music (most likely with a beat close to the human heart 45 to 72 beats per minute): Most likely used during "study sessions" as the teacher will say the music helps you relax and concentrate better!
  b. Voice Roll: A "voice roll" is a patterned, paced style used by hypnotists when inducing a trance. It is also used by many lawyers, several of whom are highly trained hypnotists, when they desire to entrench a point firmly in the minds of the jurors. A voice roll can sound as if the speaker were talking to the beat of a metronome or it may sound as though he were emphasizing every word in a monotonous, patterned style. The words will usually be delivered at the rate of 45 to 60 beats per minute, maximizing the hypnotic effect.
  c. Room "Feel": The way a room feels is essential to hypnotizing unknowing subjects. It needs special lighting, florescent lights are best because they aren't too dim, but aren't too harsh. Also, Room Temp helps a bit, usually a little cooler than normal room temperature. You need to have the unknowing subjects very relaxed, perhaps even close to falling asleep.
  13. Isolation: (Cults, military, prisoners)
  Inducing loss of reality and/or identity by physical separation from family, friends, society and rational references.
  14. Manipulative Approval: (Cults, military, prisoners)
  Maintaining vulnerability and confusion by alternately rewarding and punishing similar actions.
  15. Subconscious Manipulation: (Religions, cults, prisoners)
  Implanting subliminal messages by stressing certain key words or phrases in long, confusing lectures.
  16. Monotony: (Religions, cults)
  Encouraging blind acceptance and rejection of logic through complex lectures on an incomprehensible doctrine.
  17. Peer Pressure: (Common to all)
  Exploiting the human need to belong to suppress doubt and resistance to new ideas.
  18. Transformation: (Religions, cults, military)
  Accelerating acceptance of new lifestyle by constantly denouncing former beliefs and values.
  19. Stupefaction: (Cults, prisoners)
  Achieving loss of ability to evaluate logically by preventing private contemplation.
  20. Sleep Deprivation and Fatigue: (Cults, military, prisoners)
  Creating disorientation and vulnerability by prolonging mental and physical activity and withholding adequate rest and sleep.
  21. Suspension of Disbelief: (Common to all)
  Accomplishing automatic acceptance of beliefs by discouraging questions.
  22. Regimentation: (Cults, prisoners)
  Inducing regression and disorientation by soliciting agreement to seemingly simple rules which regulate mealtimes, bathroom breaks and use of medications.
  23. Abuse: (Cults, military, prisoners)
  Desensitizing through bombardment with foul and abusive language, physical distress or torture.
  
  

It's a really good list.


Is there a source?

[FWI]

[Replying to Tcg]

The gallop poll shows nothing of the kind and in fact doesn't refer to atheists at all. It is not a matter of opinion. I have stated a clear fact.

I realize that you are having a difficult time accepting the reality of the state of atheism, so I'll give you some more support information. A Pew Research Center article (2008) claimed and is commented on in RationalWiki, which affirms the "state of retention" for atheism was only 30%. This means that 70% of those who claimed to be atheists refuted this claim later in life. Where, 30 years earlier a similar finding was available and I also commented on that one.

However, the author of the article on RationalWiki attempts to make an effort to put a good spin on a "negative example of atheism," claiming that a 70% loss of supporters doesn’t mean that much. (????). This author tries to put a good face on the facts by comparing numbers instead of percentages, but that’s just a good demonstration of how to use "misdirection" to try and sugar coat an apparent negative…Ask any "rational" individual, if a loss of 70% to 80% of supporters doesn't mean much and you'll receive a look or comment of amazement that such a statement could actually be made.

In my previous statement, it was alluded to that the 80% loss of retention in the 1978 article reverted to religion. The 2008 study gives us some more details that the 1978 article didn't include or wasn't readily available to the general public: 30% affiliated with Protestantism, 10% Catholic, 2% Judaism, 1% Mormonism and 1% pagan. Yet, with these percentages, there still are 26%, which seems to be unaccounted for and atheism wants to claim them. But, since this group rejected atheism, the more logical explanation is that they also rejected organized religion, but accepted the existence of God, which technically is a religion.

So, as the process of brainwashing continues to be discussed, it is clear that mainstream Christianity isn't really a player in the game, but the game surely does have players.

[Tcg]

In my previous statement, it was alluded to that the 80% loss of retention in the 1978 article reverted to religion.

As I have already documented, the 1978 study doesn't show what you claim it does.

There was no mention of atheism. It simply showed that some religious people leave religious activity for a bit, and then return to it at a later date.

There's nothing else to discuss about it.