How Could Joseph and Mary Not Understand?

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How Could Joseph and Mary Not Understand?

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Post by RedEye »

The gospel of Luke tells us that on one of the yearly family trips to Jerusalem when Jesus was a boy, he failed to return back with his parents but stayed behind. His parents did not notice his absence for a whole day. (Let's ignore the fact that they must have been really atrocious parents to depart and not know that their son was not with them! Not to mention the arrogance and thoughtlessness of the boy Jesus in staying behind and not saying a word to his own parents who he should surely have realized would worry about him). Eventually Joseph and Mary went back and after much frantic (if belated) searching they found him in the temple courts. Then we have this:
  • Luke 2
    48 When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you. 49 Why were you searching for me? he asked. Didnt you know I had to be in my Fathers house? 50 But they did not understand what he was saying to them.
Did Joseph and Mary suffer collective amnesia? Had they completely forgotten the circumstances of his conception and birth after only 12 years? This is what the gospel author tells us:
  • Luke 1
    29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her, Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacobs descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.
    |
    35 The angel answered, The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.
Is it credible that Mary would have a visit from an angel, conceive a child as a virgin (!!!) and then completely forget whose son she brought into the world? Isn't this just another ridiculous plot hole in the entirely fictional story of Jesus?
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Re: How Could Joseph and Mary Not Understand?

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Post by Tcg »

RedEye wrote:
Is it credible that Mary would have a visit from an angel, conceive a child as a virgin (!!!) and then completely forget whose son she brought into the world?
It's even less credible that Joseph would forget Mary's claim. He was raising a child he knew wasn't his. Any hole in Mary's story would certainly get his full attention.

Isn't this just another ridiculous plot hole in the entirely fictional story of Jesus?
Without a doubt. It is also clearly not one Joseph would have overlooked.

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Re: How Could Joseph and Mary Not Understand?

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Post by Divine Insight »

RedEye wrote: Isn't this just another ridiculous plot hole in the entirely fictional story of Jesus?
It truly is. It's just beyond my understanding how anyone can stand by these ancient stories and keep a straight face. Seriously. We'd need to believe that Mary and Joseph were either complete idiots or were both suffering from some serious dementia. It just doesn't add up.
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Re: How Could Joseph and Mary Not Understand?

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Post by Goose »

RedEye wrote: The gospel of Luke tells us that on one of the yearly family trips to Jerusalem when Jesus was a boy, he failed to return back with his parents but stayed behind. His parents did not notice his absence for a whole day. (Let's ignore the fact that they must have been really atrocious parents to depart and not know that their son was not with them! Not to mention the arrogance and thoughtlessness of the boy Jesus in staying behind and not saying a word to his own parents who he should surely have realized would worry about him). Eventually Joseph and Mary went back and after much frantic (if belated) searching they found him in the temple courts. Then we have this:
  • Luke 2
    48 When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you. 49 Why were you searching for me? he asked. Didnt you know I had to be in my Fathers house? 50 But they did not understand what he was saying to them.
Did Joseph and Mary suffer collective amnesia? Had they completely forgotten the circumstances of his conception and birth after only 12 years?
I don't see why this must be interpreted as Jesus' parents forgetting the circumstances of his birth.

Jesus, a twelve year old boy at the time, had been missing for a few days. His parents are frantically trying to find him as any parent would. When they finally do find Jesus they are undstandably upset and ask why Jesus had done this. Jesus gives a deeper theological answer. Given the immediate circumstances and Jesus' parents understable emotional state at that moment I don't think it's any wonder they didn't understand his answer.
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Re: How Could Joseph and Mary Not Understand?

Post #5

Post by William »

[Replying to post 4 by Goose]
I don't see why this must be interpreted as Jesus' parents forgetting the circumstances of his birth.
It can be interpreted a number of ways, but it is important to stay within the framework of the overall story, as remarkable as it is. The argument that parents cannot have forgotten the circumstances of his birth, is acceptable but are there better explanations?
Jesus, a twelve year old boy at the time, had been missing for a few days.
The overall point of the story seems to be that "Jesus was never missing." That was the punchline.

The parents neglected to make sure Jesus was in the group. They did not notice his absence until nightfall when the group set up camp. One whole day gone.
The next day went by with the couple retracing their journey from the day before.
Then, it took them another day in the city to actually locate Jesus, who was in the temple discussing his favorite subject.

Having a few days of stress about the great inconvenience caused by the combination of Jesus lack of focus on the mundane, and parental neglect, when they finally caught up with him, they appear to have shifted all the responsibility onto Jesus.

Perhaps too, after being told all his life that he was the result of a GOD mating with his mum, his lack of respect for their reasoning and finger-pointing was likely motivated by that idea. "I was in my fathers house - why did that not occur to you, the obvious place to look for me? Where were you?"

I think it fair to say that mother Mary was a worrier, as there are other mentions re her behavior which imply this.

The whole story of Jesus tends to show that the parents never really fully appreciated or comprehended those phenomenal events, thus they didn't understand him, rather than they were forgetful.
Given the immediate circumstances and Jesus' parents understable emotional state at that moment I don't think it's any wonder they didn't understand his answer.



Obviously "under-stable" is a typo - but marvelous for that!

Emotions are very important in spiritual/metaphysical matters, but always are to be kept under control through the rational, even when events themselves may not appear rational because they are non-ordinary. Being in control rather than allowing emotions to control, gives one a stable place to stand in relation to the potential to come to understanding the non-ordinary.

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Re: How Could Joseph and Mary Not Understand?

Post #6

Post by FWI »

[Replying to post 1 by RedEye]
RedEye wrote:Did Joseph and Mary suffer collective amnesia?


No, they didn't. Through-out the gospels, there is no hint that Mary forgot who her son was
RedEye wrote:Had they completely forgotten the circumstances of his conception and birth after only 12 years?


No, they were doing what "any other" concerned parent would do, when it was found out that their 12 year old son wasn't to be found with their traveling group of family and friends. This is a clear example that Joseph and Mary had not experienced anything like this before, concerning the young Christ.
RedEye wrote:Is it credible that Mary would have a visit from an angel, conceive a child as a virgin (!!!) and then completely forget whose son she brought into the world?


Sure it's credibleAnd, she surely wouldn't have forgotten how her first child came to be. Yet, for 12 years the Christ didn't exhibit any unusual traits. This is the first recorded event, where the Christ is shown to have extra-ordinary abilities. Yet, from this point forward he became subject to his earthly parents, until his calling by God. So, your "unusual speculation" is unwarranted.
RedEye wrote:Isn't this just another ridiculous plot hole in the entirely fictional story of Jesus?


Since, the premise of your questions were easily answered, the ridiculous plot scenario is not biblical, but comes from an unrelated source, which makes it irrelevant to the scheme of the story.

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Re: How Could Joseph and Mary Not Understand?

Post #7

Post by RedEye »

FWI wrote: [Replying to post 1 by RedEye]
RedEye wrote:Did Joseph and Mary suffer collective amnesia?


No, they didn't. Through-out the gospels, there is no hint that Mary forgot who her son was
RedEye wrote:Had they completely forgotten the circumstances of his conception and birth after only 12 years?


No, they were doing what "any other" concerned parent would do, when it was found out that their 12 year old son wasn't to be found with their traveling group of family and friends. This is a clear example that Joseph and Mary had not experienced anything like this before, concerning the young Christ.
RedEye wrote:Is it credible that Mary would have a visit from an angel, conceive a child as a virgin (!!!) and then completely forget whose son she brought into the world?


Sure it's credibleAnd, she surely wouldn't have forgotten how her first child came to be. Yet, for 12 years the Christ didn't exhibit any unusual traits. This is the first recorded event, where the Christ is shown to have extra-ordinary abilities. Yet, from this point forward he became subject to his earthly parents, until his calling by God. So, your "unusual speculation" is unwarranted.
RedEye wrote:Isn't this just another ridiculous plot hole in the entirely fictional story of Jesus?


Since, the premise of your questions were easily answered, the ridiculous plot scenario is not biblical, but comes from an unrelated source, which makes it irrelevant to the scheme of the story.
I'm afraid I have no idea what you are talking about with this "unrelated source".

I would invite you to put yourself in the shoes of Joseph and Mary. Your spouse has been visited by an angel (who even gave Jesus his name). Your wife conceived without sexual intercourse! Other angels appeared to shepherds who came and saw and then spread the word of this miraculous birth. A righteous and devout man (Simeon) confirms that the boy is from God and destined for great things. You have a child under your care who is the only begotten son of the creator of the entire universe! Think about that. Could you forget who it was that you were raising for a single instant? Could you forget who sired him for even a nanosecond? Come on now, pull the other leg.

Here is another preposterous aspect to this little fantasy. Joseph and Mary don't miss Jesus for a day. That means that it takes another day for them to return to Jerusalem. Then the narrative has them searching for three days before they finally find Jesus in the temple courts. What did Jesus eat for those five days? Remember that he was only a 12-year old boy alone in a strange city. Where did he sleep for four nights? No answer from the text. These are the kinds of silly plot holes which render the entire episode as nothing short of unbelievable fiction.
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Re: How Could Joseph and Mary Not Understand?

Post #8

Post by RedEye »

Divine Insight wrote:
RedEye wrote: Isn't this just another ridiculous plot hole in the entirely fictional story of Jesus?
It truly is. It's just beyond my understanding how anyone can stand by these ancient stories and keep a straight face. Seriously. We'd need to believe that Mary and Joseph were either complete idiots or were both suffering from some serious dementia. It just doesn't add up.
See posts #4 and #6 if you want examples of someone doing just that. Believers have no option but to stand by these incoherent stories. They are chained to them no matter what.
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Re: How Could Joseph and Mary Not Understand?

Post #9

Post by Divine Insight »

RedEye wrote:
Divine Insight wrote:
RedEye wrote: Isn't this just another ridiculous plot hole in the entirely fictional story of Jesus?
It truly is. It's just beyond my understanding how anyone can stand by these ancient stories and keep a straight face. Seriously. We'd need to believe that Mary and Joseph were either complete idiots or were both suffering from some serious dementia. It just doesn't add up.
See posts #4 and #6 if you want examples of someone doing just that. Believers have no option but to stand by these incoherent stories. They are chained to them no matter what.

The other thing they are willing to ignore also is the fact that if Jesus was truly God incarnate he would have known better than to just go off without telling his parents what his plans where. Keep in mind that one of the commandments is to honor thy mother and father. Obviously Jesus had no respect for his parents at all.

And while one could argue that Joseph wasn't his parent Mary most certainly was.

But yes, you are right those who have been taken in by this religion really have no choice but to continue to make excuses for it until the cows come home. What they appear to fully realize is that the number of apologies for this failed theology are greater than the theology itself. And this particular incident is a perfect example. It's one incident that requires TWO apologies.

One apology for why Mary and Joseph had no clue what Jesus was talking about. And a second apology for why Jesus was so ignorant and disrespectful of his own parents to not event tell them that he was starting his ministry. Even a mere mortal preacher would most likely tell his parents what his plans were.

And this is typical of the Biblical stories. Just about every event requires multiple apologies to try to justify it. And those apologies are never compelling in any case.

For example, the apologies thus far were trying to downplay Mary and Joseph's inability to comprehend what Jesus was saying. But the verse you posted in the OP actually rejects that apology itself when it states: "But they did not understand what he was saying to them."

The authors of these obviously false fables created contradictions that no apologies can remedy.

So yes, they might keep a straight face whilst making up their absurd apologies, but this isn't because they believe their apologies actually make sense. Their straight face is really nothing more than an extreme fear that they can't afford for the theology to be wrong. It just has to be right, because in their mind the consequences of it being false is simply too much to bear. From their perspective at that point they would need to face unthinkable things.

1. Face the fact that secularism may very well be true and that when they die they'll just cease to exist.

2. Egotistically bear the embarrassment of having to confess to their greatest enemy (the atheists) that the atheist actually have a point.

3. Finally, and possibly the most difficult at all, they might need to face social rejection from their community, career position, and even their own families.

In fact, many believers of this religion who have come to the realization that it's obviously not true have ended up having their spouse divorce them over it. That's how extremely hazardous it can be for a believer to face the reality of the fallacy of Christianity. It can be life-changing in so many ways. It's no wonder they keep a straight face when making apologies for this religion. The idea that it might actually be false is simply to dire to even consider. They have no choice but to defend it. No matter how absurd the defense becomes.

The fact that this religion has incarcerated so many people in a dungeon of self-delusion is truly sad. It was an extremely powerful social brainwashing scheme. So powerful that is has been coasting along for hundreds of years on momentum alone. The original monarchical dictators who invented it to keep people under their thumb have long since passed away. And now the religion is just rolling along the tracks like a "Ghost Train" with no one even running the locomotive anymore. Everyone on the train are just passengers now sitting in the coaches making excuses for why the train makes no sense.

In Islam we can easily see the truth of this since in many countries dictators are still using Islam as a political weapon to keep people under their thumb. But Christianity has become divorced from its original political purposes and is now just coasting alongside secular democracies that have superseded it. Unfortunately, as we can see, there are still millions of people who can't free themselves from it. Even though the secularist around them have come to realize the fallacy of it all. Those who are still held captive by it actually view the secularists as "The Enemy".

That's how POWERFUL this religious regime was and still is. It's one of the most successful brainwashing schemes ever invented. Believe, and you'll be granted eternal life in paradise. Dare to leave the religion, and you'll burn in hell for eternity.

That's a very powerful idea.

So Mary didn't understand Jesus? Who cares? I'm going to heaven anyway! O:)

That's the idea. 8-)
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Re: How Could Joseph and Mary Not Understand?

Post #10

Post by RedEye »

Divine Insight wrote:
RedEye wrote:
Divine Insight wrote:
RedEye wrote: Isn't this just another ridiculous plot hole in the entirely fictional story of Jesus?
It truly is. It's just beyond my understanding how anyone can stand by these ancient stories and keep a straight face. Seriously. We'd need to believe that Mary and Joseph were either complete idiots or were both suffering from some serious dementia. It just doesn't add up.
See posts #4 and #6 if you want examples of someone doing just that. Believers have no option but to stand by these incoherent stories. They are chained to them no matter what.
For example, the apologies thus far were trying to downplay Mary and Joseph's inability to comprehend what Jesus was saying. But the verse you posted in the OP actually rejects that apology itself when it states: "But they did not understand what he was saying to them."
The other aspect of this fable is how the gospel author knew the details of this story five or more decades later. We can dispense with the idea that the author of Luke was a disciple. Even if the writer had access to a disciple, why would Jesus have told the disciples this story which makes him look completely irresponsible as you say (by not showing honor to his father and mother and telling them of his plan to stay behind)? What is the teaching point that Jesus was making? Self-aggrandizement at the expense of ridiculing the IQ of his parents?

What's even worse is how the gospel author could know that Joseph and Mary did not (somehow) understand the point Jesus was making about being in his Father's house. This is another case of an omniscient author who knows things that it is not possible to know even if they were there as an eyewitness to the events. He claims to know what Joseph and Mary comprehended or did not comprehend. Telepathy, mind-reading and magic, again?
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