How Could Joseph and Mary Not Understand?

[RedEye]

The gospel of Luke tells us that on one of the yearly family trips to Jerusalem when Jesus was a boy, he failed to return back with his parents but stayed behind. His parents did not notice his absence for a whole day. (Let's ignore the fact that they must have been really atrocious parents to depart and not know that their son was not with them! Not to mention the arrogance and thoughtlessness of the boy Jesus in staying behind and not saying a word to his own parents who he should surely have realized would worry about him). Eventually Joseph and Mary went back and after much frantic (if belated) searching they found him in the temple courts. Then we have this:

• Luke 2
  48 When his parents saw him, they were astonished. His mother said to him, Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you. 49 Why were you searching for me? he asked. Didnt you know I had to be in my Fathers house? 50 But they did not understand what he was saying to them.

Did Joseph and Mary suffer collective amnesia? Had they completely forgotten the circumstances of his conception and birth after only 12 years? This is what the gospel author tells us:

• Luke 1
  29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her, Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacobs descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.
  |
  35 The angel answered, The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.

Is it credible that Mary would have a visit from an angel, conceive a child as a virgin (!!!) and then completely forget whose son she brought into the world? Isn't this just another ridiculous plot hole in the entirely fictional story of Jesus?

[Goose]

I would invite you to put yourself in the shoes of Joseph and Mary.

Exactly. Your twelve year old son has gone missing for a few days and you eventually find him. You tell him youve been worried sick frantically looking for him and ask him why we did that to you. Is it any wonder that in that moment they didnt understand what Jesus meant?

As for not understanding Jesus, this is a recurring theme. Even Jesus disciples didnt understand Jesus at times. After Jesus spoke to his disciples for the third time of his eventual death and resurrection, Luke records:

But the disciples understood none of these things, and the meaning of this statement was hidden from them, and they did not comprehend the things that were said. " Luke 18:34

Not understanding doesnt imply forgetting. And that's what you are arguing for, that Mary and Joseph forgot the circumstances of Jesus' birth.

Here is another preposterous aspect to this little fantasy.

I dont think what you argue next is as preposterous as you imply.

Joseph and Mary don't miss Jesus for a day.

You are assuming this must mean a full 24hr period, yes? Not necessarily. In Jewish time reckoning part of a day could be counted as a day. In other words, the day Jesus parents travelled before they realized Jesus was missing may have been merely an hour or two. Take for example the death and resurrection of Jesus. Jesus dies around 3PM on a Friday and rises early Sunday morning. This is three days in Jewish time reckoning because the last 2-3 hours of Friday, before the Sabbath begins at dusk on Friday, is counted as one day. Even though this day was merely a few hours.

What did Jesus eat for those five days?

Where are you getting this five days? The text says nothing about five days. It says after three days they found Jesus. Those three days would include the day of travelling before they realized Jesus was missing and the time it took to get back to Jerusalem. Jesus may have been on his own for as little as two nights.

As for what he ate. The text says Jesus stayed behind in Jerusalem. So he would have stayed and eaten with whomever his parents had stayed with while in Jerusalem for the Feast of the Passover.

Where did he sleep for four nights?

It probably wasnt four nights. In any case, Jesus could have slept in the same place as his he did while with his parents during the Feast of the Passover. Remember, the whole family went to Jerusalem every year for the Feast. Surely they had acquaintances who lived in Jerusalem by that point.

No answer from the text.

None needed. Its implied.

[polonius]

RedEye posted:

Is it credible that Mary would have a visit from an angel, conceive a child as a virgin (!!!) and then completely forget whose son she brought into the world? Isn't this just another ridiculous plot hole in the entirely fictional story of Jesus?

RESPONSE: Of course! Much in the Bible is fictional. My favorite story is the one of Matthew's where Jesus sends for and rides two animals of different sizes when entering Jerusalem.

You note, of course, that the three remaining evangelists only have Jesus sending for and riding one animal.

[FWI]

I would invite you to put yourself in the shoes of Joseph and Mary. Your spouse has been visited by an angel (who even gave Jesus his name). Your wife conceived without sexual intercourse! Other angels appeared to shepherds who came and saw and then spread the word of this miraculous birth. A righteous and devout man (Simeon) confirms that the boy is from God and destined for great things. You have a child under your care who is the only begotten son of the creator of the entire universe! Think about that. Could you forget who it was that you were raising for a single instant? Could you forget who sired him for even a nanosecond? Come on now, pull the other leg.

So, I challenge RedEye or anyone else to show me (in my comments), where I claim that Joseph and Mary didn't know who the Christ was/isActually, I clearly state the opposite of his above comments. This attempt at spin or misdirection is quite evident. So, it seems that he is the one trying to pull a leg or two here. It is also clear that Joseph and Mary knew that God would be watching over the ChristSo, allowing him to stay with cousins and friends wasn't much of a concern, until they learned he actually wasn't with them.

As far as, a woman becoming pregnant without sexual intercourse, this is nothing new to the modern age of man! The use of assisted reproductive technology or IVF (In vitro fertilization) is somewhat common. So, this type of action would be child's play to God. However, the divine aspect of the Christ is another matter and beyond the understanding of most atheists, for obvious reasons. Such as, they don't believe that God or divine beings exists

Here is another preposterous aspect to this little fantasy. Joseph and Mary don't miss Jesus for a day. That means that it takes another day for them to return to Jerusalem. Then the narrative has them searching for three days before they finally find Jesus in the temple courts. What did Jesus eat for those five days? Remember that he was only a 12-year old boy alone in a strange city. Where did he sleep for four nights? No answer from the text. These are the kinds of silly plot holes which render the entire episode as nothing short of unbelievable fiction.

I have read the comments made by poster Goose (post 11) and he gave a reasonable rebuttal to RedEye's unusual approach to the topic in question. Yet, there is another possibility: Ironic, as it might seem, there was a school in Jerusalem, which housed and fed male children between the ages of 10-14 years old. It was called the school of Gamaliel, where Pharisees would send their male children to be schooled in the way of the Pharisees. This is the same school, which Saul (Paul) attendedSo, the Christ, being in the midst of the teachers (Pharisees) astonished them so much that they probably thought that he was from this school and would have provided to his needs (food and sleeping quarters or an area to rest overnight) in the temple or somewhere else.

So, there isn't any plot holes in the story! There is only an attempt to discredit the writings, which doesn't seem to be working very well. Hence, there is "no collective amnesia" affecting Joseph and Mary.

[RedEye]

I would invite you to put yourself in the shoes of Joseph and Mary. Your spouse has been visited by an angel (who even gave Jesus his name). Your wife conceived without sexual intercourse! Other angels appeared to shepherds who came and saw and then spread the word of this miraculous birth. A righteous and devout man (Simeon) confirms that the boy is from God and destined for great things. You have a child under your care who is the only begotten son of the creator of the entire universe! Think about that. Could you forget who it was that you were raising for a single instant? Could you forget who sired him for even a nanosecond? Come on now, pull the other leg.

So, I challenge RedEye or anyone else to show me (in my comments), where I claim that Joseph and Mary didn't know who the Christ was/is

I wrote:

• Is it credible that Mary would have a visit from an angel, conceive a child as a virgin (!!!) and then completely forget whose son she brought into the world?

You wrote:

• Sure it's credible...

Actually, I clearly state the opposite of his above comments.

Yes you did, but perhaps you can now understand my confusion.

This attempt at spin or misdirection is quite evident. So, it seems that he is the one trying to pull a leg or two here.

I'm not sure that you should be blaming others for your inability to state things in a careful manner without apparent contradiction.

It is also clear that Joseph and Mary knew that God would be watching over the Christ

That is not in the text. If they knew this, then why the worry and anxious search?

So, allowing him to stay with cousins and friends wasn't much of a concern, until they learned he actually wasn't with them.

That is also not in the text. You are inventing your own scripture. The only "friends and relatives" that are mentioned were traveling with them to and from Jerusalem. As far as we know they all stayed in tents on the outskirts of the city for the duration of the festival.

Here is another preposterous aspect to this little fantasy. Joseph and Mary don't miss Jesus for a day. That means that it takes another day for them to return to Jerusalem. Then the narrative has them searching for three days before they finally find Jesus in the temple courts. What did Jesus eat for those five days? Remember that he was only a 12-year old boy alone in a strange city. Where did he sleep for four nights? No answer from the text. These are the kinds of silly plot holes which render the entire episode as nothing short of unbelievable fiction.

I have read the comments made by poster Goose (post 11) and he gave a reasonable rebuttal to RedEye's unusual approach to the topic in question.

I ignore that poster. I don't find that interactions with him are productive.

Yet, there is another possibility: Ironic, as it might seem, there was a school in Jerusalem, which housed and fed male children between the ages of 10-14 years old. It was called the school of Gamaliel, where Pharisees would send their male children to be schooled in the way of the Pharisees. This is the same school, which Saul (Paul) attendedSo, the Christ, being in the midst of the teachers (Pharisees) astonished them so much that they probably thought that he was from this school and would have provided to his needs (food and sleeping quarters or an area to rest overnight) in the temple or somewhere else.

So, there isn't any plot holes in the story! There is only an attempt to discredit the writings, which doesn't seem to be working very well.

You are inventing your own story again. The point is that the text glosses over the practical aspects of this little yarn. As far as we know Jesus begged on the streets for food and slept in alleyways when it became dark. We just don't know because the author deigned not to tell us. That is the plot hole.

Hence, there is "no collective amnesia" affecting Joseph and Mary.

Then you need to explain what Joseph and Mary did not understand about the explanation Jesus gave to them about how they should have been able to find him sooner. That is the whole point of the OP. Given that you agree that both parents knew at all times who Jesus's real father was, what exactly were they having trouble with?

[Goose]

I wrote:

• Is it credible that Mary would have a visit from an angel, conceive a child as a virgin (!!!) and then completely forget whose son she brought into the world?

The text says nothing about them forgetting. It says they didn't understand. Not understanding is not the same as forgetting.

You are inventing your own story again.

You're doing that too. You are inventing this idea they "forgot" the circumstances of Jesus' birth.

The point is that the text glosses over the practical aspects of this little yarn.

But you haven't shown why the exclusion of these "practical aspects" to the story makes the story fiction. As far as I can see they are simply irrelevant to the point of the story.

As far as we know Jesus begged on the streets for food and slept in alleyways when it became dark.

There, you've answered your own question as to what Jesus ate and wear he slept. What difference does it make to the point of the story?

We just don't know because the author deigned not to tell us.

Right. Because those details are irrelevant to the point of the story.

That is the plot hole.

You've imagined this as some kind of a damning plot hole. It's not a plot hole. It's just the absence of irrelevant details.

Then you need to explain what Joseph and Mary did not understand about the explanation Jesus gave to them about how they should have been able to find him sooner. That is the whole point of the OP. Given that you agree that both parents knew at all times who Jesus's real father was, what exactly were they having trouble with?

There's nothing to explain. That Jesus' parents didn't understand is the point. The disciples didnt understand Jesus at times either. People can be thick. It happens.

[Wootah]

RedEye posted:

Is it credible that Mary would have a visit from an angel, conceive a child as a virgin (!!!) and then completely forget whose son she brought into the world? Isn't this just another ridiculous plot hole in the entirely fictional story of Jesus?

RESPONSE: Of course! Much in the Bible is fictional. My favorite story is the one of Matthew's where Jesus sends for and rides two animals of different sizes when entering Jerusalem.

You note, of course, that the three remaining evangelists only have Jesus sending for and riding one animal.

You might not be understanding that story correctly. Here's a short summary article to brush up on. There were two animals brought to Jesus a donkey and a colt. From this article it quotes Zech 9:9:mounted on a donkey, even on a colt, the foal of a donkey. So perhaps the colt was the donkey's child and it was nicer for both to come together?

https://carm.org/bible-difficulties/isa ... ught-jesus

But please don't respond in this thread. If you need further conversation start a new thread so we don't derail this one.

[ttruscott]

Is it credible that Mary would have a visit from an angel, conceive a child as a virgin (!!!) and then completely forget whose son she brought into the world?

Beside the very astute mention that not understanding does not imply forgetting, you might be interested to know that sinfulness does indeed MAKE people forget as written about in Rom 1 which insists that sinners who saw the creation of the physical universe (1:20) then repress that proof because their love for sin is greater than their love for the truth. Paul says this at least 3 times which bears all the implications that scriptural repetitiveness contains.

As sinners, both Mary and Joseph would be heir to this repression syndrome and lack of insight into spiritual things.

[William]

[Replying to post 17 by ttruscott]

As sinners, both Mary and Joseph would be heir to this repression syndrome and lack of insight into spiritual things.

And what - if anything - would fix this amnesia, you claim both Mary and Joseph were under the influence of?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 11 by Goose]

Even Jesus disciples didnt understand Jesus at times.

And I'm supposed to trust the Gospels, which (if I recall correctly) you say were written by the disciples Matthew/Mark/Luke/John, because why...?
If as you say the disciples didn't understand Jesus (at times), then it's very likely they got what they say Jesus said in the Gospels wrong.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 17 by ttruscott]

As sinners, both Mary and Joseph would be heir to this repression syndrome and lack of insight into spiritual things.

And what - if anything - would fix this amnesia, you claim both Mary and Joseph were under the influence of?

Rebirth:
This self imposed amnesia is cured only by the intervention of the Holy Spirit by giving them a rebirth into Christ, a rebirth that breaks their addictive enslavement to evil and restores their free will. It would seem to be accompanied by the Holy Spirit indwelling the person.