Is The Author God or Is It Humans?

[RedEye]

Christians often tell us that their holy book is the true and unadulterated word of their god (the one true god). Here is an opportunity for you to give your reasons as to why you believe this.

So, Christians how exactly do you know that the Bible is the word of God and not simply an invention of human minds?

Bear in mind that Muslims believe that the Qur'an is the word of Allah, the Jews believe the Tanakh is the word of Yahweh and so on. At least one of you must be wrong since all of these books cannot be the work of the one true god. (Why would he need two or more wildly different books?).

Would it be a reasonable expectation that if a holy book was dictated by God then it would reveal some knowledge of the world which was beyond the humans of the time? We see no evidence of this. In fact, we see the reverse. Holy books contain information which has been demonstrated to be wrong by science.

Therefore, what is the key piece of evidence which convinces you that God authored a holy book and it could not possibly be an entirely human construct?

[RedEye]

… (The Bible also contains much false information, foolishness and hate).

Foolishness and hate seems to be a matter of opinion.

No more so than wisdom and love.

I think Bible is in no way foolish.

I do.

And if God hates evil, I think it is ok.

It's still hate. What is evil about a father and mother?

• Matthew 14:26 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters — yes, even his own life — he cannot be My disciple.

But I am certain that it has no false information.

It is chock full of false information.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Biblical_ ... fic_errors

Humans are capable of amazing creative acts.

I don’t think so. Mostly humans seem to only mimic what they see in nature or elsewhere.

You must be thinking of monkeys. No monkey wrote Lord of the Rings.

(And remember that the Bible has dozens and dozens of authors so it is an accumulated work). Is this an argument from personal incredulity?

To me, that Bible has many authors, confirms the message. It has many witnesses and they all have the same basic ideas and for me, it confirms the message. If it would be only from one person at one point of time, it would not be as credible, it would also be totally different book.

I think you missed the point. If it had been the creative work of one person you might have been able to mount a case for your argument from personal incredulity, ie. that it could not have been produced by a human being without help. Since it was written by dozens of people (often contradicting each other) it weakens the case dramatically.

I will scatter you among the nations, and I will draw out the sword after you: and your land will be a desolation, and your cities shall be a waste.
Leviticus 26:33

False prophecy plus cherry-picking. Firstly, this is a threat made if the Jews did not listen to Yahweh and were hostile to him. That never happened so there was no reason for the threat to be carried out.

Sorry, I think it really happened when they rejected the message Jesus forwarded from God.

That was just the Jewish priesthood (who had no way of knowing who they were dealing with since Jesus failed to clearly identify who he was). The Jewish people did accept the message if we believe the gospels. You can't punish a whole people for the sins of a few. That would be foolish.

Secondly, the text states that Yahweh would do this scattering (with sword in hand).

It says “I will draw out the sword after you� and Romans could be seen as that sword.

If that's symbolic only then all of it could be symbolic. The fact is that humans (Romans) did some of the scattering (at least for Jerusalem) and it happened nearly four decades after the alleged death of Jesus. So what you are arguing is a delayed reaction by God which makes no sense. And you can't even prove that God had anything to do with it. The scenario you paint (as implausible as it is) is indistinguishable from God doing nothing at all.

Lastly, there are a whole series of threats made (by a loving God!) in Leviticus 26:14-39. You cherry-pick one of them and ignore the others. Did Jews resort to cannibalism as in Leviticus 26:29?

No response means that you concede this point. One score was all I needed.

Did God make a bunch of false prophecies and then suddenly produce a good one?

I think God has not produced any false prophesy. And I am certain that you can’t prove your claim correct.

I am certain I just did.

It shall happen, when all these things are come on you, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before you, and you shall call them to mind among all the nations, where Yahweh your God has driven you, and shall return to Yahweh your God, and shall obey his voice according to all that I command you this day, you and your children, with all your heart, and with all your soul; that then Yahweh your God will turn your captivity, and have compassion on you, and will return and gather you from all the peoples, where Yahweh your God has scattered you. If any of your outcasts are in the uttermost parts of the heavens, from there will Yahweh your God gather you, and from there will he bring you back:
Deuteronomy 30:1-4

Another false prophecy. The Jews were resettled in Israel by Great Britain after WWII. God had nothing to do with either scattering them or bringing them back. It all happened entirely through human activity. Also, the passage talks about restoring Jews who have died and gone to heaven. Never happened. The millions of victims of the Holocaust for example have stayed dead. It's a complete failure as "prophecy" in every respect.

How do you know God did not influence people so that they carried out the correct moves?

Because there is no evidence for it. If you are making that claim then you have the burden of proof. You would also need to explain how God's alleged influence could not keep nearly 7 million Jews out of the gas ovens. Go ahead. Explain.

How do you know who got or did not get eternal life with God?

That has nothing to do with the passage in question which states that God would gather these people from heaven and bring them back.

[Guy Threepwood]

[Replying to post 1 by RedEye]

#1 best seller and most influential book in the history of humanity.. is not inconsistent with a divine creation!

That said, the concept of faith is always important; you have faith your car will get you safely to your destination, not proof. So when you get in, you are committing to an act of faith - based on reasonable evidence.

So too with the Bible, for most I would say.

[StuartJ]

[Replying to post 1 by RedEye]

#1 best seller and most influential book in the history of humanity.. is not inconsistent with a divine creation!

That said, the concept of faith is always important; you have faith your car will get you safely to your destination, not proof. So when you get in, you are committing to an act of faith - based on reasonable evidence.

So too with the Bible, for most I would say.

That didn't come anywhere near establishing that anyone's concept of "God" had anything to do with the collections of human, Jewish writings known as the Bibles.

Analogies and "faith" never do.

[Guy Threepwood]

[Replying to post 1 by RedEye]

#1 best seller and most influential book in the history of humanity.. is not inconsistent with a divine creation!

That said, the concept of faith is always important; you have faith your car will get you safely to your destination, not proof. So when you get in, you are committing to an act of faith - based on reasonable evidence.

So too with the Bible, for most I would say.

That didn't come anywhere near establishing that anyone's concept of "God" had anything to do with the collections of human, Jewish writings known as the Bibles.

Analogies and "faith" never do.

human writings on God had nothing to do with anyone's concept of God..?

Apparently they did, at a pivotal point in history, resonating over millennia, cultures, continents, races, billions of people, like no other book.

That tells me it probably wasn't some unintended fluke that God was unaware of..

And I have a little more faith in that than my car making it to the gulf coast this winter as is, maybe a bad CV joint.. but that's for another forum!

[Tart]

Christians often tell us that their holy book is the true and unadulterated word of their god (the one true god). Here is an opportunity for you to give your reasons as to why you believe this.

So, Christians how exactly do you know that the Bible is the word of God and not simply an invention of human minds?

Bear in mind that Muslims believe that the Qur'an is the word of Allah, the Jews believe the Tanakh is the word of Yahweh and so on. At least one of you must be wrong since all of these books cannot be the work of the one true god. (Why would he need two or more wildly different books?).

Would it be a reasonable expectation that if a holy book was dictated by God then it would reveal some knowledge of the world which was beyond the humans of the time? We see no evidence of this. In fact, we see the reverse. Holy books contain information which has been demonstrated to be wrong by science.

Therefore, what is the key piece of evidence which convinces you that God authored a holy book and it could not possibly be an entirely human construct?

Ya good question. So i think for me, a part of it is prophecy... Before i believed, i stumbled upon some prophecy. I read on some internet forum somewhere "the Jews are God's chosen people"... That didnt really make sense to me, but I started to think about the Jews... Who are the Jews? Why is there so much controversy among them? Why is the middle east around Israel full of conflict and war? I started to wonder if God was behind it. I started to think of Jesus... I wondered how to make sense of Jesus. I didnt even know what it meant to say "Jesus is our savior"...

Upon reading the Bible, maybe 5 years later. The scripture convinced me beyond doubt it as the Word of God. I have been believing ever sense, and my beliefs strengthen when I openly seek answers.

For example. I was talking about the Jews, and the wars and conflict around them. This is exactly what the Bible prophesied would happen. In Revaluations they even give locations of wars in the end times. In Genesis, from the origins of Arabs, they prophesy the conflict that would arise from the son Ishmael. Throughout the Old Testament, there are numerous prophecies of all the conflicts that the Jews would go through, which we can see they continue to go through. In Genesis we can see the prophecies given to Abraham, being the father of many, the prophecies given to his seed, too numerous to count. The blessings and promises that would come from his son Isaac. Or in Jeremiah, for example, he prophecies that the city of Jerusalem would never be "uprooted or demolished", lest it be an act of God... That is telling us, this tiny city, among the oldest cities on the planet, which has been the spot of many wars, and many changes in powers, hasnt been uprooted or demolished aside from the prophecy of Jesus about the temple. I honestly believe it is Holy Land, where the dynamics of Gods prophecies are coming and intertwining in the spiritual battles that are taking place on earth. It's prophecy... Or for example, when Jesus said "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations"... That is a bold claim Jesus made, or even whoever you think wrote about Jesus. If it is really man made, and not God inspired (from an "All Knowing God") that is a radically improbable claim to make. The chances of that becoming true, if not God inspired, is nearly zero.. This man with at most a few thousands believers in a corner of the world, claiming his words would reach the ends of the earth... And this prophecy is clearly coming true...

How else do i know this is the Word of God? How the scripture speaks to me is how i know it's true. When the scripture says we can test the spirits to determine if they are from God by the name of Jesus. I believe that is true. When Jesus said "Have you never read in the Scriptures: "'The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; the Lord has done this, and it is marvelous in our eyes'?".. That is true in my life. My personal life is testimony to the Truth of God through Jesus... When i grew up, falling from grace, i ended up in groups of people who rejected Jesus, whom is the cornerstone, and i went along with it becuase i was foolish... Where did this lead me? Exactly where God prophesied it would leave me, as a nonbeliever. It led me to worshiping ways of the flesh, sin, sex, drugs, etc.. Now i really didnt openly worship this stuff, but my actions showed i did (without even knowing it). I personally thought i was a good person, becuase i was blind to my sins. And it led me exactly where the scripture tells us it will lead, into destruction.... Im a convert from a jail cell. I ended up homeless, jobless, friendless, where no one knew me, not even my family knew where i was. I ended up in jail becuase in my state of desperation i stole a car to sleep in... They put me in solitary confinement after i responded to jail house politics by engaging in physical alterations. Sure enough, the destruction from non-belief materialized in my life, just like the scripture prophesied... When i read the Bible in the jail cell, i had no idea why Jesus was important, but it hit me like a ton of bricks... They tell us, we can test the spirits by the name of Jesus. So when i looked back at my life, and i remember groups i was in that openly discredited Jesus, that was warning signs i missed.. When these people proved to me to be irrelevant to my life, that was prophecy of these spirits (1 John 2:19)... When scripture says "from a seed of Faith" you life cant change, and miracles can happen, thats true in my life... I mean i had a radical conversion, just like scripture prophecies. I went from nothing, and when scripture prophecies "Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.".. That is true for me. I believe that verse is talking about faith... I went from homeless, jobless, friendless, where my family didnt know where i was, to being called out of that life. To obeying God. I left that jail cell saved. I immediately surrendered to my calling, i took my fathers advice and went to school. I have 2 degrees now (civil engineering and water quality management), near top of my class. I was a high-school drop out... My life changed.. I have friends, i have a church, I volunteer, I recognize sin now, I have a good relationship with my family... This is all a direct result of God, my life is testimony to the truth of God... And it happened exactly like scripture says it will... In fact, scripture prophecies that God will create a path for us, before we get there, and i have no doubt that is the truth..

10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

There is no doubt scripture is the Word of God.. Between prophecy, personal Revelation, experiencing the true power of God and salvation, i have no doubt... And it doesnt just stop there... We can be revealed the truth, God is the foundation of truth and knowledge. He has been identified as the Logos, he is the explanation for physical truth, natural order. Even Aristotle, in his book where he coined the word "physics"..

"Aristotle argues, in Book 8 of the Physics and Book 12 of the Metaphysics, "that there must be an immortal, unchanging being, ultimately responsible for all wholeness and orderliness in the sensible world"."

God reveals truth, and established valid foundations for knowledge... It is the nonbelievers who deviate from those realities.

The scripture makes sense of truth, and grounds a valid foundation for belief. The prophecies of Jesus as the Messiah, the Christ, show God is at work in the destiny of people, and of humanity. The Bible is the best place one can go to study truth. It is probably the number one book to go to the understand the "Law" and how it relates to our lives. It reveals the dynamics of our relationships on earth, and how God plays a role (like by testing the spirits of people). It establishes a valid foundation for righteousness (morality, or knowledge of right and wrong). It reveals what "sin" is, and convicts us of our own. It demonstrates that our actions matter, it speaks to us personally. its prophecies our wars, our conflicts, our persecutions. It lays a solid foundation for the spirit in how we conduct ourselves even when faced with evil... And all this isnt to mention the reasoning for all of this in the scripture. That is Jesus Christ, and Him as the Risen Messiah, which if true then clearly God is in control. Jesus Christ remains relevant, an is unable to be explained away... Non-believers will deviate from the valid foundation of scripture, and throw doubt all over, but this doesnt persuade me becuase it doesnt give us any good explanation for anything, including that of the evidence and origins of Christianity... You guys throw doubt all over, but it remains clear that Jesus the Christ is our Risen Messiah. Which i dont only think is the best explanation of the evidences around Christ, but its the only reasonable explanation for the origins of Christianity... For example, I honestly think you must be blind if you think Paul didnt believe Jesus really existed... I dont think anyone would ever come to that conclusion unless they themselves hold on personal biases, and are trying to justify "Jesus is a myth", which was imagined up in the 1800's despite what the evidence says...

Christianity has power in its personal message. It has "all knowing" knowledge in its prophecies. It establishes valid foundations for logic, reasoning, truth, and knowledge, which was philosophized from the beginning all the way up to the present. We can make sense out of "right and wrong", righteousness, sin, judgement. For these reasons, and not limited to, i believe Jesus is my Savior and Christianity is a message from an All knowing and All powerful God.

[polonius]

1213 wrote:

Foolishness and hate seems to be a matter of opinion. I think Bible is in no way foolish. And if God hates evil, I think it is ok. But I am certain that it has no false information.

RESPONSE: Are you serious? The last chapter of Luke has Jesus ascending to heaven on the evening of the Resurrection. The first chapter of Acts has Jesus ascending to heaven 40 days after the Resurrection.

One of these is wrong, isn’t it? We can look at a lot of similar contradictions. Tell me, does God contradict himself often?

[1213]

It's still hate.

What do you think hate means and why do you think it is wrong?

It is chock full of false information.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Biblical_ ... fic_errors

If modern people make new definitions to old matters, it is easy to make Bible to look wrong. Anything can be made look false, if words are defined in new way so that it looks bad for old texts. It doesn’t mean Bible has false information. It only means that modern people have defined reality in the way that they like.

One example of those “scientific errors� is the number of insect legs. Many insects have 6 limbs and modern people think they are all legs. However, those who told the Bible message, may have taught that four of them are legs and two of them are arms. And actually, if you look at the insects, four of the limbs are used as legs and two of the limbs are used as arms and arms can be also used to get support when moving. So, Bible is more accurate than science in this. It may be that “science� and Bible are contradictory, but it doesn’t mean Bible is wrong.

That “Biblical scientific errors� page is not very smart. It really can’t show even one real error in the Bible. Like for example the smallest seed point, Matthew 13:32 says “least� and it is used in meaning that it is the smallest in size. Least can also mean it is least in rank, not valued much. But maybe even more important is to notice that Jesus was speaking about herbs, which is why it is kind of stupid to then compare it to all possible seeds.

…But when it is grown, it is greater than the herbs…
Matt. 13:32

I think the “Biblical scientific errors� page is just one sign of that atheists have really nothing to support their anti-God propaganda.

You must be thinking of monkeys. No monkey wrote Lord of the Rings.

I think Lord of the Rings is mimicking history and old stories. Basically it describes the two branches of socialism, communism and Nazis (orcs and uruk hais) and then there is the free world that is tried to be destroyed by those fascists. It is basically a story of fascism and how power corrupts. And the black tower of Mordor is like the tower of Babel, idea of one world government to rule all. All the ideas can be found from older stories or from history. But still, it is a good story, there is really good lesson in it. Sad thing is that in our time there are people who are basically forging the one “ring� to rule all of us (one world government).

I think you missed the point. If it had been the creative work of one person you might have been able to mount a case for your argument from personal incredulity, ie. that it could not have been produced by a human being without help. Since it was written by dozens of people (often contradicting each other) it weakens the case dramatically.

But because they don’t contradict each other, it makes it even stronger evidence.

Lastly, there are a whole series of threats made (by a loving God!) in Leviticus 26:14-39. You cherry-pick one of them and ignore the others. Did Jews resort to cannibalism as in Leviticus 26:29?

No response means that you concede this point. One score was all I needed.

You seem to be really desperate. It is possible that Jews have resorted to cannibalism at some point, or that time is coming. I have no means to prove it. But it doesn’t mean it has not happened.

[RedEye]

[Replying to post 1 by RedEye]

#1 best seller and most influential book in the history of humanity.. is not inconsistent with a divine creation!

But certainly not evidence for it.

That said, the concept of faith is always important; you have faith your car will get you safely to your destination, not proof. So when you get in, you are committing to an act of faith - based on reasonable evidence.

So too with the Bible, for most I would say.

You are conflating two different meanings for the word "faith". The first faith you are talking about is confidence or trust based on past experience. The second faith you are talking about is blind religious faith - based on believing without evidence.

• faith
  /feɪθ/
  noun
  noun: faith
  
  1. complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
  "this restores one's faith in politicians"
  synonyms: trust, belief, confidence, conviction, credence, reliance, dependence;
  2. strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.
  "bereaved people who have shown supreme faith"
  synonyms: religion, church, sect, denomination, persuasion, religious persuasion, religious belief, belief, code of belief, ideology, creed, teaching, dogma, doctrine

I asked you for a key piece of evidence and you have given me religious faith which operates without evidence.

[1213]

RESPONSE: Are you serious? The last chapter of Luke has Jesus ascending to heaven on the evening of the Resurrection. The first chapter of Acts has Jesus ascending to heaven 40 days after the Resurrection.

One of these is wrong, isn’t it? We can look at a lot of similar contradictions. Tell me, does God contradict himself often?

I have no reason to think God contradicts Himself.

And about the ascending, is there some good reason to think it couldn’t have happened more than one time?

[RedEye]

Ya good question. So i think for me, a part of it is prophecy...

I invite you to start a thread where you lay out some rules for what would constitute a valid prophecy (something secular minds can agree to) and then quote your single best candidate from the Bible. I will be more than happy to refute why whatever it is does not qualify as a valid prophecy. There is no authentic prophecy in the Bible despite your assertions.

How else do i know this is the Word of God? How the scripture speaks to me is how i know it's true.

You are talking about what you subjectively feel and it therefore has nothing to do with evidence which will convince anyone else (like me).

"Aristotle argues, in Book 8 of the Physics and Book 12 of the Metaphysics, "that there must be an immortal, unchanging being, ultimately responsible for all wholeness and orderliness in the sensible world"."

A philosopher's opinion is not evidence. And I was talking about authorship of the Bible, not the existence of God.