Hello, and good-bye...

[PinSeeker]

Hey, folks, I haven't been around for quite a while now, and just dropped in to see what was new. Know what I found? Nothing. Absolutely... nothing. There truly is nothing new under the sun (Ecclesiastes).

But that was penultimate to my purpose, actually; it's actually just to say I won't be around anymore. And so, in parting, I would echo Paul's Holy-Spirit-inspired words to the believers here -- and to the unbelievers, agnostic and atheist alike (is there really any difference at the end of the day?), because God may yet do a good work in them, too:

I solemnly charge you in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers. Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth. But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, "The Lord knows those who are His,� and, “Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness."

Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor. Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work. Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels. The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will. But realize this, that in the last days (which are here now) difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to a form of godliness (which in itself is evidence of God), although they have denied its power; avoid such men as these. For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses, always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith. But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all, just as Jannes’s and Jambres’s folly was also.

Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from Whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom: preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction. For the time will come (and is now here) when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths. But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

The time of my departure has come. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

I wish you all the best, which is that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob would reveal Himself to you and cause you to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, thereby resulting in your obtaining an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away -- the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls. Grace and peace and love to you all.

[Divine Insight]

Hey, folks, I haven't been around for quite a while now, and just dropped in to see what was new. Know what I found? Nothing. Absolutely... nothing. There truly is nothing new under the sun

What else would you expect? On this site we debate an ancient archaic religion that was written thousands of years ago. It's not permissible to rewrite those ancient texts. In fact, those texts themselves threaten horrible punishments to anyone who dares to change so much as one word of them.

So why would you expect anything to change here? Christian Apologetics is a stagnant subject.

The crux of Christian Apologetics is basically to beat a 2000-year-old dead horse without mercy.

In fact, I have often stated on this very forum that they aren't even beating a dead horse. Instead they are basically beating the spot on the ground where a horse had once died some 2000 years ago.

There can be nothing new in Christian Apologists. That's just the nature of the beast. You either believe what was written and decreed over 2000 years ago, or you don't. There's really nothing more to add.

Christians apologists are wasting their time if they think they can bring anything new to the subject. It's not a career to pursue if you would like to move forward or grow. There can be no growth in Christian Apologetics. It's not even permitted by the Christian doctrine. You're stuck with a 2000-year-old tale. Period.

Nothing will ever change in Christian Apologetics.

Did you truly expect that it could?

[Jagella]

Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted. But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.

I'm wondering how any Christian here has been persecuted.

Anyway, I don't believe that people who disagree with me are necessarily evil, or impostors, or go from bad to worse, or deceive or are being deceived. I respect the right of others to hold beliefs that run counter to mine without their being denounced or libeled.

So good luck, Pin. Please make sure you do not harm people.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 1 by PinSeeker]

Hey, for what it's worth, I've enjoyed our little back and forths. Good luck to ya in whatever it is you now do with your time.

But now, back to your regularly scheduled critiquing...

Hey, folks, I haven't been around for quite a while now, and just dropped in to see what was new. Know what I found? Nothing. Absolutely... nothing. There truly is nothing new under the sun (Ecclesiastes).

Why is it that I get the sense that this is something you dislike...even though it's apparently what you think Ecclesiastes foretells? If Eccles says that there is nothing new under the sun, and when you go to check and there is nothing new under the sun...shouldn't you be happy? Thrilled? Anyway, the forum does tend to die down during Christmas and come back later.

And so, in parting, I would echo Paul's Holy-Spirit-inspired words to the believers here -- and to the unbelievers, agnostic and atheist alike (is there really any difference at the end of the day?)

Yes there is a difference, unless you'd like to go down a road of not caring about differences, and just lumping all people in together.

because God may yet do a good work in them, too:

I'll echo what DI has said many a time on this forum - why are you, the Christian apologists, here then? If apparently it's all up to God, why are you as apologists here on this forum at all?

I solemnly charge you in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.

Is this a not so subtle admission that Christianity has no logical basis on which to stand, that it itself doesn't care about what it says. I am very suspicious when I hear someone say to not worry about what it is they say.

Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth

But if one doesn't "wrangle about words", then how can one show they are accurately handling the word of truth?

But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene.

Sounds like elitist clap-trap to me, a way for Paul to ensure to his followers that they were better than the unwashed masses. He's not the first person to try this, nor was he the last.

But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels. The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged

See, this is what I dislike about Christian theism in general. You say to refuse speculations, because they produce quarrels, and then say that you have to be a teacher. This mindset can only work if you automatically think of yourself as having the 'Truth' with a capital T, one that cannot and ought not the questioned or challenged, with you and yours at the head of a classroom.
It is those who are afraid of truths who say to refuse speculation, in my own humble opinion. Otherwise...why would they say it at all? Surely if they had the Truth, it would withstand any and all challenges?

if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

Go on, detail what it is I am doing that you think is because the devil made me do it.
Is this really how you view people? People don't have any capacity to do things out of their own will, they are instead robots programmed either by Yahweh or Satan?

But realize this, that in the last days (which are here now)

Pinseeker, you just quoted Paul, who said that line, TWO THOUSAND YEARS AGO.
I'm pretty sure the 'last days' have either come and gone, or the phrase means nothing at all.

For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to a form of godliness (which in itself is evidence of God),

News at 11.

although they have denied its power; avoid such men as these.

Are you implying that me and mine, the atheists on this site, are that list of bad personality traits?

For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins,

Not this thirty year old virgin...

led on by various impulses, always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

So always learning is...a bad thing?

Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith. But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all, just as Jannes’s and Jambres’s folly was also.

So do I somehow still have the same magical powers as Moses to change staves from wood to serpent and back again?

Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.

Not all. Plenty of people go through life as Christians and never encounter an obstacle to their faith.
I am aware there are those who are persecuted, such as Asia Bibi.

I wish you all the best, which is that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob would reveal Himself to you and cause you to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

What the heck does that even mean? As an English sentence, it works, but I'm trying to parse the meaning behind it. What is a 'living hope' versus just a simple 'hope'?
Also, what happens if your god never reveals himself, as I and others maintain to this day? What does your theology say is going to happen to me then? That I am evil? Sinful? Wicked? Deserving of hellfire?

thereby resulting in your obtaining an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away -- the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls. Grace and peace and love to you all.

If it takes your god appearing to accomplish this, then that is what it takes. What were you doing on this site then all along?

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 2 by Divine Insight]

Not as static as you make it sound. The clash between orthodoxy and heresy is a dialectic which continues to this day. Witness the manifold sects of Christianity with differing doctrines and conclusions, all from the very same Bible!

Trinitarians, for example, preach that Jesus was Divine. Jehovah's Witnesses and others? Not so much. They've concluded he was not.

And even Trinitarians are not unified on every dogmatic issue. Infant vs. adult baptism, speaking in tounges or not. And some even go so far as to consign the other to the eternal torture of hell, citing so called St. Paul's curse, accusing the other of preaching a "different Gospel". Allow me to borrow some words of irony from our friend Marco regarding Paul, "nice guy".

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 1 by PinSeeker]

Nothing new PinSeeker? Then why don't you bring something new. Open opportunity here. Perhaps you have and we just missed it.

And it's deliciously ironic that Paul warns against speculation. His whole theology of blood redemption is speculation, pure and simple. Really nothing more than Paul's attributing theological significance to Jesus martyrdom. Not founded in the treachigns of Jesus himself, Paul adds conditions to salvation. Namely one must "believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead" in order to be saved. Jesus never taught that as a condition for salvation.

Having said this, I wish you all the best, and would welcome your return.

[Divine Insight]

Not as static as you make it sound. The clash between orthodoxy and heresy is a dialectic which continues to this day. Witness the manifold sects of Christianity with differing doctrines and conclusions, all from the very same Bible!

Trinitarians, for example, preach that Jesus was Divine. Jehovah's Witnesses and others? Not so much. They've concluded he was not.

And even Trinitarians are not unified on every dogmatic issue. Infant vs. adult baptism, speaking in tounges or not. And some even go so far as to consign the other to the eternal torture of hell, citing so called St. Paul's curse, accusing the other of preaching a "different Gospel". Allow me to borrow some words of irony from our friend Marco regarding Paul, "nice guy".

I disagree. Most of these modern day forms of Christianity are actually quite rebellious and have "protested" against the original doctrine. In fact, as far as I can see we can rule out all of the Protestantisms as being non-representative of any actual Christianity. They have protested against the original doctrine of Christianity.

You've mentioned Jehovah's Witnesses, but they are an extremely recent faction of Protestant Christianity. Having only been created in the late 1800's. That's one thousand eight hundred years after the birth of Christ. Why bother giving such a late rebellious faction any credence at all?

Also you say that there are some so-called "Christians" today that reject the divinity of Christ. But there are major problems with those factions. For one thing they need to toss out the entire virgin birth story. So in order to claim that Christ was not the divine Son of God they actually need to toss out major parts of the original Gospel claims. It would seem to me that the moment they do this they should be seen as factions that actually reject the original stories entirely. What else are they willing to toss out?

You also mention the concept of hell as eternal torture having supposedly been Paul's idea. But that idea originally came from Jesus according to the synoptic Gospels. They have Jesus proclaiming that the wicked will go to "everlasting punishment" where there will be wailing and the gnashing of teeth. So this idea of everlasting punishment was assigned to Jesus (the divine virgin-born Son of God)

I realize that anyone can make any claims they want to about the ancient fables of Jesus. And on this website in particular it is against the rules to challenge anyone who claims to be a "Christian", but at what point does this become ridiculous?

Let's say that I accept your views on how much a person can reject from the original stories?

I can then also reject the divinity of Christ (just like the Jehovah's Witnesses do)

I can then also reject the notion of an eternal hell where people suffer everlasting punishment.

Why stop there?

I can also reject the entire Gospel of Paul. I can just toss that out proclaiming Paul to have been one of the "False Prophets" that Jesus had warned about.

No need to even stop here:

Apparently I can also reject the entire claim that Jesus was resurrected from the dead and floated off on a cloud to enjoy eternal life in heaven as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

In short, I can view the entire collection of fables as nothing more than superstitious exaggerations potentially sparked by some poor religious rebel who might have argued with religious leaders and was crucified on charges of apostasy.

But guess what?

According to you, this website, and apparently almost all of the modern day rebellious protesting Protestant factions of this religion I can still claim to be a "Christian".

But then I need to ask, "At what point does this label become totally meaningless?"

If person A and person B have totally conflicting views, ideas, and beliefs about what it means to be a "Christian" or what the religion of "Christianity" even means, and they are both calling themselves "Christians" and claiming to believe in "Christianity" then what meaningful value could these words possibly have?

Also, how could we debate anyone on "Christianity" if everyone claims that it means something different? At that point there's nothing to debate. The very concept of "Christianity" become nothing more than a personal opinion that cannot be challenged.

As far as I'm concerned, anyone who rejects the divinity of Christ and the virgin-birth story of Christ being the Son of God conceived by God in the womb of the virgin Mary has already rejected Christianity as being an unbelievable story.

This website may have rules that we aren't permitted to publicly challenge someone who calls themselves a "Christian". But in the real world, as far as I'm concerned, if you renounce the Gospel tales that are at the foundation of this religion, then you have already rejected this religion. To go around claiming that your still a "Christians" at that point, is IMHO, utterly ridiculous.

I may not be able to tell you on this site that your position on this religion does not represent "Christianity" because the rules of this site say that I'm not permitted to do this. But those rules most certainly aren't going to prevent me from dismissing your views in reality. And you can be certain that I do.

As far as I'm concerned, the very moment you renounce the divinity of Christ, you have already renounced Christianity. There's no longer any need to debate Christianity with you since you have apparently already rejected it yourself.

But apparently on this site I could technically claim to be a Christian and no one could challenge this by the rules. Even though I reject the divinity of Jesus, the resurrection, and the whole shebang.

Apparently I wouldn't be doing anything much different from what you do.

[Tcg]

Hey, folks, I haven't been around for quite a while now, and just dropped in to see what was new. Know what I found? Nothing. Absolutely... nothing. There truly is nothing new under the sun (Ecclesiastes).

Actually, there are a great many new things under the sun. Solar power is an exciting one. Ecclesiastes is probably too old of a news source to expect current reporting. You could find better info on YouTube.

But that was penultimate to my purpose, actually; it's actually just to say I won't be around anymore.

I suspect we would have noticed.

And so, in parting, I would echo Paul's Holy-Spirit-inspired words to the believers here -- and to the unbelievers, agnostic and atheist alike (is there really any difference at the end of the day?)

Yes, there is a difference both at the beginning and the end of the day.

[preaching deleted]

See ya, PinSeeker!