What does it take to prove descent?

[rikuoamero]

So, the situation is problematic for me. I'm told that there are prophecies, and that among them, we are told that a descendant of the legendary King David will take his throne and drive out Israel's enemies.

I want to focus on the descent part. How does one prove descent? With Jesus, we have two Gospels (Matthew and Luke) rattling off a list of names (different lists by the way) supposedly going back to David and even further. We have Paul mentioning Jesus to be a descendant.
But...IS Jesus a descendant? What constitutes evidence for the claim that he is? Two lists of names?
I want to ask Christian apologists - imagine Jesus's first coming was in the present day. Would you believe someone to be a descendant of the legend that is King David, simply because someone else rattled off a list of names? "A is the son of B, B is the son of C, C is the son of D..."? I'm wondering why you're taking Jesus's biological credentials so...lightly. I mean, it's not like people back then had birth certs, or kept blood tests or DNA records.
How do we know Jesus IS a descendant of David? Can we verify the existence of the people in the supposed lists of ancestry? Did Jews keep absolutely meticulous genealogical records?
I can rattle off a list of names, and say I'm descended from say...the Rockefellers for instance. But does saying "Rikuoamero was the son of Adam, who was the son of Bob, who was the son of Charlie, who was the son of John Rockefellor Sr" mean that I am to be considered an heir to the Rockefeller fortune?

[marco]

Also according to a hadith I read; One the greatest Christian scholars came to the 7th Imam, Moses alKadhim(a.s.) and converted to Islam cause of he got several answeres from the Imam including he was been awared that the mother of Mary was named 'Martha' the Syriac name, and 'Wahibah' the Arabic
Ref: http://smj-en.blogspot.com/2010/02/2.html?m=0

Amazing! It is surprising that the greatest Christian scholar in the known universe was persuaded simply by hearing a rumour about Mary's mum. Did the clever Imam get his knowledge from osmosis or was he able to travel in time just as Muhammad was able to travel in space?

There is scant information on Mary in the Bible. Where did Muhammad get his details from, given that Muhammad based his tales on Jewish and Christian stories?

[rikuoamero]

Rather than asking ". How does one prove descent? " a more pertinent question would be . "What would be accepted as proof of prove descent for the a first century Jewish audience faced with a claim of Messiahship?"

Obviously what might satisfy the unsophisticated should not meet modern requirements. .

Exactly my point!

The gospels explain that at the time the Jews were in expectation if the Messiah, indeed if the law had been respected, Jesus own claims should have been verified. I doubt they would have asked for a DNA sample or a blood test. Everone knew that the Messiah was to be of the house of David, so the real question is how would they have verified claimed parentage?



JW

Did you think this through before posting? Should we look to the Hebrews for guidance on criminal matters, on how to identify them?
Again, another reason why I dislike Christianity. Logic gets taken out back and shot.

[Yusef]

Also according to a hadith I read; One the greatest Christian scholars came to the 7th Imam, Moses alKadhim(a.s.) and converted to Islam cause of he got several answeres from the Imam including he was been awared that the mother of Mary was named 'Martha' the Syriac name, and 'Wahibah' the Arabic
Ref: http://smj-en.blogspot.com/2010/02/2.html?m=0

Amazing! It is surprising that the greatest Christian scholar in the known universe was persuaded simply by hearing a rumour about Mary's mum. Did the clever Imam get his knowledge from osmosis or was he able to travel in time just as Muhammad was able to travel in space?

There is scant information on Mary in the Bible. Where did Muhammad get his details from, given that Muhammad based his tales on Jewish and Christian stories?

first of all you should look at the lineage by clicking on the blogspot;

Two,
I've read many narration and story about great spiritual men of any religion that:
They weren't like you-not! Like me fool,
And they were very powerful in the spirituality! And it's enough for them that a bit information make them changing!
How do we now, if... you can look at the Crossword post i brought

[marco]

I've read many narration and story about great spiritual men of any religion that:
They weren't like you-not! Like me fool,

I see you view yourself as " a fool". Are you hoping to gain wisdom by posting here and getting informative answers? As long as one simply reads and believes stories, one remains foolish. Surely it is good to question. Where, for exmple, did Muhammad get his information from? Why should anyone believe it was from a god?

If God is good and just he will commend those who ask questions. The fool is engulfed in ignorance. Relative to what I don't know, I too am a fool. We struggle with the instruments chance gave us. Even a fool knows that it is absurd to speculate on Mary's genealogy.

[1213]

So if the Messiah can be anyone, with no Davidian blood connection, why the prophecy in the first place?

According to the scriptures, he should be raised up in the house of his servant David. And there are also other things that should be expected from Messiah, according to the scriptures. It just doesn’t mean he has to be direct offspring of David. The prophesy is not about blood connection.

[marco]

So if the Messiah can be anyone, with no Davidian blood connection, why the prophecy in the first place?

According to the scriptures, he should be raised up in the house of his servant David. And there are also other things that should be expected from Messiah, according to the scriptures. It just doesn’t mean he has to be direct offspring of David. The prophesy is not about blood connection.

One huge advantage of faith, 1213 is that it endows people with the ability to find their truth in the sentences of Scripture. Different people believe different things, but each one can find their own beliefs reflected in what Scripture says. Perhaps that is what Christ meant when he said: Faith can move mountains. It can certainly get over any Scriptural obstacles.

Sometimes faith sees pages of holy words and forgets all about humanity.

[JehovahsWitness]

Rather than asking ". How does one prove descent? " a more pertinent question would be . "What would be accepted as proof of prove descent for the a first century Jewish audience faced with a claim of Messiahship?"

Obviously what might satisfy the unsophisticated should not meet modern requirements. .

Exactly my point!

The gospels explain that at the time the Jews were in expectation if the Messiah, indeed if the law had been respected, Jesus own claims should have been verified. I doubt they would have asked for a DNA sample or a blood test. Everone knew that the Messiah was to be of the house of David, so the real question is how would they have verified claimed parentage?



JW

Did you think this through before posting? Should we look to the Hebrews for guidance on criminal matters, on how to identify them?

I don't think I mentioned 21st Century criminal investigation but rather first century religious norms. I see no reason to extrapolate one to the other?

JW

[rikuoamero]

Rather than asking ". How does one prove descent? " a more pertinent question would be . "What would be accepted as proof of prove descent for the a first century Jewish audience faced with a claim of Messiahship?"

Obviously what might satisfy the unsophisticated should not meet modern requirements. .

Exactly my point!

The gospels explain that at the time the Jews were in expectation if the Messiah, indeed if the law had been respected, Jesus own claims should have been verified. I doubt they would have asked for a DNA sample or a blood test. Everone knew that the Messiah was to be of the house of David, so the real question is how would they have verified claimed parentage?



JW

Did you think this through before posting? Should we look to the Hebrews for guidance on criminal matters, on how to identify them?

I don't think I mentioned 21st Century criminal investigation but rather first century religious norms. I see no reason to extrapolate one to the other?

JW

If one is going to use methodologies from thousands of years ago to identify descent...where's the break in logic to then suggest we do the same in regards to criminals?
The reason the Hebrews had their methods is because they literally didn't know better. It boggles my mind to hear someone suggest we regress, but then I shouldn't be surprised. It should be something I expected all along. If I heard someone say something logical like "If someone claims to be of the descent of a royal house, we should implement rigorous testing procedures", they'd immediately trap themselves as such things were not done for Jesus Christ.

[StuartJ]

So, the situation is problematic for me. I'm told that there are prophecies, and that among them, we are told that a descendant of the legendary King David will take his throne and drive out Israel's enemies.

Precisely the political nature of the whole Jesus business.

Davids off the throne.

Hasmoneans then Herods on the throne.

David followers keep trying to get their guys back on.

Simple human politics.

***********************

Oldest bulk of biblical texts are from Herodian times.

Scraps from Hasmonean times.

Biblical writings are propaganda.

In my view ...

Biblical propaganda was rewritten by Hasmoneans and Herods.

Slanders the Davids ...

Who were possibly/probably believed to be god-kings ...

Like the Jesus character.

No magic

No miracles

Just common human politics.

Very simple.

[bjs]

What standard of proof are you looking for?

Beyond a shadow of a doubt?
Beyond a reasonable doubt?
Preponderance of evidence?
Plausible, even if unlikely?
Not absolutely disproven?

If we are going for the preponderance of evidence then I would say that we have that (existing genealogies with no rational reason to doubt them). Anything more than that would be impossible without a couple of bodies to test, which of course we don’t have. Even if we did have King David’s body, how could we prove it was really David?

Personally, I’m good with that. Other than a desire to question every claim in the Bible no matter how mundane it may be, I see no reason to doubt that Jesus was descended from David. I don’t feel a need to prove the claim, and I can’t imagine having that proof would change anything for anyone.