What difference did Jesus make?

[marco]

Some think Jesus was a god while others see him as a prophet sent on a strange heavenly mission to get himself killed. Tied up with this theory is the idea that LOVE is involved; he accepted crucifixion because he loved people. That does not seem to make sense unless one constructs a complex theology about redemption.

Be that as it may, Jesus was with us for a short time period so it is relevant to ask what good or bad has resulted from his celestial mission. Alexander founded a city; the Egyptians left us stone monuments and tablets to say what they believed; Caesar changed the calendar for us, and allowed us to use the terms tsar and Kaiser. What is Christ's legacy? The good have stayed good and the bad are still bad; we have Christian charity and Christian killing. All in all we have what we would statistically expect from a popular preacher - some good, some bad.


What made Jesus special were his reported miracles. But not one single miracle enabled medicine to advance today; nor altered technology. Things have moved on as they did from Alexander and from Caesar and through the Inquisition we learned that love is the same as hate. We observe how one Christian group despises another.

SO


Did Jesus make a difference that would reflect a divine mission?


or


Is he, like Muhammad, a mystic who talked to God but offered nothing much to humanity?

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 6 by FWI]

The relevance of the Muslim reference is that they were not Christian, so presumably without the aid of the "Son of God" they still provided medical advances in the middle ages.

And just a word of advisement, it is against forum rules to speculate on another's motives. But just out of curiosity, what do you suppose my "true intent" was?

Yes, as a fellow Theist I would agree that all gifts of intelligence and Reason are ultimately from God. To suggest that Christ had anything to do with this is more speculative that I am willing to go.

For the record, I am a "heretical" Christian who does not believe Christ was God. I don't believe Jesus believed he was God either.

[FWI]

[Replying to post 11 by Elijah John]

The relevance of the Muslim reference is that they were not Christian, so presumably without the aid of the "Son of God" they still provided medical advances in the middle ages.

I made no reference that the Son of God would only aid Christians. This is contrary to the Christ's instructions and actions. So, it would seem that favoritism is not in play. Since, I am not a Christian, as most may understand one, it wouldn't make much sense for me to take a position that is contrary to my own belief system.

And just a word of advisement, it is against forum rules to speculate on another's motives. But just out of curiosity, what do you suppose my "true intent" was?

Thank you for the advisement. Yet, for me to continue on this path would seem not to be very wise. So, I have no other choice, but to keep my opinion to myself, related to your question. I did not intend to offend.

For the record, I am a "heretical" Christian who does not believe Christ was God. I don't believe Jesus believed he was God either.

I don't understand the point here. I also "do not" believe that the Christ is the Supreme Entity (God) or part of a trinity and that he never claimed so either. Was it your belief that I did? However, I do believe that the Christ is a god, who has powers, which can only be surpassed by God.

[Elijah John]

I don't understand the point here. I also "do not" believe that the Christ is the Supreme Entity (God) or part of a trinity and that he never claimed so either. Was it your belief that I did? However, I do believe that the Christ is a god, who has powers, which can only be surpassed by God.

Thanks for the clarification. When someone attributes supernatural abilities, my default position is to assume they are Trinitarians. Mistakenly, it seems, in this case and some others.

Regarding what you may think may be my "true intent" please feel free to PM me, I should have made that invitation in the first place. Hopefully that will clarify things. And I am curious as to what it seems to you is my underlying position.

And thanks for your clarification. My point was that by stating where I was coming from on this matter, I wanted to make it clear that I don't think Christ has anything to do with inspiring medical or any other kind of scientific advances, (only moral and religous ones) simply because he was just a man. A Godly, holy man and prophet yes, but just a man and not God, not even a god. Though we agree that Jesus is not "God", your's is still a far higher Christology than mine.

[dio9]

we can only guess the effect of Jesus if not crucified. perhaps there would not have been a disastrous Jewish was with Rome and destroyed for one difference. Just imagine a kingdom based on values Jesus preached. Oh yes the fate of Israel turned on the axis of that difference.

[Peds nurse]

Some think Jesus was a god while others see him as a prophet sent on a strange heavenly mission to get himself killed. Tied up with this theory is the idea that LOVE is involved; he accepted crucifixion because he loved people. That does not seem to make sense unless one constructs a complex theology about redemption.

Hello my beautiful friend!

This is perhaps the easiest for me to understand, the giving up of Jesus's life for the benefit of others. When we love, it often times requires us to sacrifice. Our children are sick, we sacrifice a missed day at work. Our spouse needs help, we drop what we are doing and help. Our family needs help with kids/grandkids, we travel miles to be there. Love is sacrificial in nature. It isn't because we deserve it, but rather that we are worth it!

Be that as it may, Jesus was with us for a short time period so it is relevant to ask what good or bad has resulted from his celestial mission. Alexander founded a city; the Egyptians left us stone monuments and tablets to say what they believed; Caesar changed the calendar for us, and allowed us to use the terms tsar and Kaiser. What is Christ's legacy? The good have stayed good and the bad are still bad; we have Christian charity and Christian killing. All in all we have what we would statistically expect from a popular preacher - some good, some bad.

Christ's legacy is showing us the very nature of God and the love He has for His people that He would bring redemption to a lost world. Hope.

What made Jesus special were his reported miracles. But not one single miracle enabled medicine to advance today; nor altered technology. Things have moved on as they did from Alexander and from Caesar and through the Inquisition we learned that love is the same as hate. We observe how one Christian group despises another.

I don't think it was the miracles in and of themselves that set Jesus apart. It was His love for the outcasts, the sick, the poor, the hungry, and the hurt. What He imparted in the hearts of men was a love so great that nothing could ever separate it from us. Not even death. He has given more hope than anyone before or after Him.


It is always a pleasure Mr. Marco!

[Tcg]

He has given more hope than anyone before or after Him.

This doesn't provide much hope for the majority:

"13 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Matthew 7:13-14"

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 12 by FWI]

Thanks for your PM. I tried to reply via PM, but it seems your settings do not allow reception of PMs.

I'm not a Muslim, though I respect Islam. I am Christian absolute monotheist, not a Trinitarian. I hope that is apparent in everything I post. And as my Christology is "low" (believing Jesus to be human and not God, not even the "first born of all Creation") I don't see how he could make a difference in the advancement of knowledge at all, after his death. Just his teachings live on as far as I can see. No influence from the clouds nor from Heaven, where no doubt he resides.

All the best,

EJ

[William]

[Replying to post 1 by marco]

Some think Jesus was a god while others see him as a prophet sent on a strange heavenly mission to get himself killed. Tied up with this theory is the idea that LOVE is involved; he accepted crucifixion because he loved people. That does not seem to make sense unless one constructs a complex theology about redemption.

Well one was constructed, no doubt about that!

In ordinary terms, laying down one's life for others is counted by human beings as an ultimate sacrifice necessary, in the same sense as 'the greater good of the one is outweighed by the greater good of the many'.

In line with the particular complex theology, the greater good of the many is that they are saved from 'hell'. Even in the complexity there is quite a difference in sect-belief as to what 'hell' represents, but generally it appears to be based upon a type of 'like attracts like' which individual consciousnesses naturally experience after this life, if they are inclined toward evil behavior.

Be that as it may, Jesus was with us for a short time period so it is relevant to ask what good or bad has resulted from his celestial mission. Alexander founded a city; the Egyptians left us stone monuments and tablets to say what they believed; Caesar changed the calendar for us, and allowed us to use the terms tsar and Kaiser. What is Christ's legacy? The good have stayed good and the bad are still bad; we have Christian charity and Christian killing. All in all we have what we would statistically expect from a popular preacher - some good, some bad.

Given we have no idea as to what the preacher actually preached, what has been added or taken away from, what we do have is the historical wake of the vessel which shows us clearly both the good and the evil, which - given the facts - is to be expected.

We simply cannot imagine a world without that, as being better or worse than the world we do live in. What we do know though is that Christianity at least expanded to accept differences, which is more than we might be able to say about the other two branches of the Abranite organised religions. It has at least made some attempts at taming the beast.

Did Jesus make a difference that would reflect a divine mission?

Hard to say when we cannot determine for sure exactly what a 'divine mission' should be like.
I do think that perhaps the state of the world at the time pretty much excluded concepts of loving ones neighbor/enemy as viable alternatives but these did play a part in how the world has unfolded since then, as far as I can tell. Perhaps on occasion then, the world does require something claiming to be from divine sources in order to dramatically shift the consensus from bad behavior to better behavior.

Perhaps the ripple in that ocean had to start with humble beginnings from 2000 years ago in order for it to have time to take effect.

Is he, like Muhammad, a mystic who talked to God but offered nothing much to humanity?

What is it humanity requires in which religion can offer nothing much?

Perhaps greater things humans have done than Jesus, is something Jesus anticipated, and perhaps is saying so, he set humans down that path of achievement?

[bjs]

The good have stayed good and the bad are still bad;

I have heard this rhetoric many times in the past, and it always seems problematic.

Billions of people have said that they live better lives because of Jesus. Statistically very, very few people have used Christianity has an excuse to do bad (KKK, inquisitioners, etc.).

Are you saying that the billions have done good in the name of Christ would have done good anyway?

Is this an article of faith, or do you have evidence for what would have happened?

[Peds nurse]

He has given more hope than anyone before or after Him.

This doesn't provide much hope for the majority:

"13 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Matthew 7:13-14"

Hey Tcg!

While your quote of scripture is true, it does not negate the ability for all to walk through the narrow gate.