Is The Author God or Is It Humans?

[RedEye]

Christians often tell us that their holy book is the true and unadulterated word of their god (the one true god). Here is an opportunity for you to give your reasons as to why you believe this.

So, Christians how exactly do you know that the Bible is the word of God and not simply an invention of human minds?

Bear in mind that Muslims believe that the Qur'an is the word of Allah, the Jews believe the Tanakh is the word of Yahweh and so on. At least one of you must be wrong since all of these books cannot be the work of the one true god. (Why would he need two or more wildly different books?).

Would it be a reasonable expectation that if a holy book was dictated by God then it would reveal some knowledge of the world which was beyond the humans of the time? We see no evidence of this. In fact, we see the reverse. Holy books contain information which has been demonstrated to be wrong by science.

Therefore, what is the key piece of evidence which convinces you that God authored a holy book and it could not possibly be an entirely human construct?

[1213]

...
Sure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_c ... _influence

• Comparative mythology provides historical and cross-cultural perspectives for Jewish mythology. Both sources behind the Genesis creation narrative borrowed themes from Mesopotamian mythology,[19][20] but adapted them to their belief in one God,[2] establishing a monotheistic creation in opposition to the polytheistic creation myth of ancient Israel's neighbors.[21][22]

That's just one example.

Sorry, no proof there. One could as well say that others copied what they heard from Jews. I thinkit is more likely that the others copied from the Jews.

[Tart]

Ya good question. So i think for me, a part of it is prophecy...

I invite you to start a thread where you lay out some rules for what would constitute a valid prophecy (something secular minds can agree to) and then quote your single best candidate from the Bible. I will be more than happy to refute why whatever it is does not qualify as a valid prophecy. There is no authentic prophecy in the Bible despite your assertions.

You do know this is projecting biases right off the bat, right? Essentially you are saying, before we even begin to look the prophecy, that it is not true. You have already determined a conclusion to evidence that has not been presented yet. That is clearly showing cognitive biases in how you plan to interpret the evidence...

I am basing my claim on experience. I have debated Christians many, many times on their assertions of prophecy in the Bible. I have yet to see a valid one (when appropriate criteria are used). Therefore my comment is not necessarily a case of bias (although I readily admit to having bias --- we all have our biases) but merely a summary of the failure of Christians to make a compelling case. However, I could still be proved wrong. Are you willing to give it a shot?

Good that you recognize being bias... You are right, we all have biases and I think if we come from a perspective that is not bias in concluding judgement about the scripture, that it is sufficient in demonstrating its Word.

Ya, so lets look at the prophecy... What is your criteria for prophecy?

Since you have left it up to me I suggest these:

viewtopic.php?t=2142&lofi=1

Lets start with Jeremiahs prophecy about Jerusalem (Jeremiah 31)... You believe this is false prophecy?

38 “The days are coming,� declares the Lord, “when this city will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. 40 The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the Lord. The city will never again be uprooted or demolished.�

Of course it is false prophecy. It fails multiple criteria. There are no specifics given on when this prophecy will come to pass --- it is completely open-ended because we can never know if Jerusalem will be destroyed again (as it was about 70CE). There is also no agreement among modern scholars on the location of most of the landmarks referred to in this passage — the Tower of Hananel, the Hill of Gareb, Goah, and so on. That makes it impossible to verify against present day Jerusalem (which has expanded to the north of the ancient city). Jerusalem has been captured and desolated several times from 2600 years ago and its current state still cannot be described as fully restored. Arab Muslims still control some areas of Jerusalem.

Was this really your best shot?

My best shot? There are more prophecies we can look at, but first...

1) When did specific dates become requirements for prophecies? They arent... Look up "prophecy", get a definition, there is nothing that states it needs to name a specific date. Id suggest that your "criteria" (that you probably imagined up in your head) is a means of discrediting prophecy on standards that doesnt define prophecy... Its almost like a No True Scotsman fallacy, (but no true prophecy fallacy), on "criteria" you come up with to do so.

Are you really telling me a prophecy cant have a "never again" element? Why would anyone need to accept this "criteria" from you?

Actually this prophecy of "never again" is an extremely improbable prophecy that seems to be fulfilling...

2) when did prophecy become dependent on where scholars can agree upon exact locations? Maybe the prophecy should have read:

this city will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. 40 The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the Lord. The city will never again be uprooted or demolished.�, but only if scholars can agree on the location"
~Jeremiah

This is another ridiculous criteria as far as im concerned... deployed only to discredit the prophecies legitimacy... I suspect you can come up with any criteria you want, to discredit prophecy... Like a Scotsman

Person A: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
Person B: "But my uncle Angus is a Scotsman and he puts sugar on his porridge."
Person A: "But no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman


We can certainly locate the location, even if scholars dont agree on the exact location of the landmarks. This is Jerusalem they are talking about, and we know where Jerusalem is, all the way back to that time.

Now, is there any valid reason you think this prophecy is false? Other then these criteria, or the destruction of the Temple you mentioned that was predicted by Jesus and came to pass in 70ad, because that is prophecy as well... What is a valid reason this prophecy is false?

Becuase quite frankly, this is an extremely improbable prophecy, that not even Rome itself could withstand "The Eternal City", with its huge armies, and it walls, and its empire... Jerusalem on the other-hand, a small city, no empire, small armies, that has changed authorities tons of times, is living up to something Rome couldnt... Not to mention it is even older then Rome, and it has stood longer... Jerusalem maybe one of the oldest cities on the planet, and it is in the most hostile part of the world. This prophecy is actually quite amazing, and something only a God could fulfill, i dont think humanity could do this if they tried (we have many examples)....

[Tart]

[Replying to post 30 by RedEye]

How about you lay out ALL your criteria, that i suspect will have nothing to do with the root definition/understanding of prophecy, but i want to see your criteria non-the-less

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 32 by Tart]

1) When did specific dates become requirements for prophecies? They arent... Look up "prophecy", get a definition, there is nothing that states it needs to name a specific date. Id suggest that your "criteria" (that you probably imagined up in your head) is a means of discrediting prophecy on standards that doesnt define prophecy... Its almost like a No True Scotsman fallacy, (but no true prophecy fallacy), on "criteria" you come up with to do so.

Sounds to me like you want your prophecies to never fail to be considered such, for them to not have a fail state. If you were to agree with us, agree to provide dates, that would mean you'd have to be willing to say "I was wrong, this was actually a false prophecy", once that date comes and goes.
In other words, you want to stack the deck so much in your favour that you don't even have to consider the possibility of being wrong.

This is another ridiculous criteria as far as im concerned... deployed only to discredit the prophecies legitimacy... I suspect you can come up with any criteria you want, to discredit prophecy... Like a Scotsman

How can one verify that the "Tower of Hananel" prophecy has come true, if no-one is sure just where the different geographical points it's talking about, are?
At this point, anyone can say "This is point A from the prophecy, point B, point C, therefore it's fulfilled", and Tart can't exactly say they are wrong!

This prophecy is actually quite amazing, and something only a God could fulfill, i dont think humanity could do this if they tried (we have many examples)....

Since Tart doesn't want to nail us down to specifics, then what he thinks only a God is capable of...is so much looser than what I consider.
I would consider only a God (or a time travelling alien) to be capable of getting specific dates right. After all...isn't this what we're told regarding the prophet Daniel?

[RedEye]

...
Sure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_c ... _influence

• Comparative mythology provides historical and cross-cultural perspectives for Jewish mythology. Both sources behind the Genesis creation narrative borrowed themes from Mesopotamian mythology,[19][20] but adapted them to their belief in one God,[2] establishing a monotheistic creation in opposition to the polytheistic creation myth of ancient Israel's neighbors.[21][22]

That's just one example.

Sorry, no proof there. One could as well say that others copied what they heard from Jews. I thinkit is more likely that the others copied from the Jews.

What you "think" is irrelevant. What you can prove is the issue. I cited a reputable source. You cite nothing but your own imagination.

[RedEye]

Good that you recognize being bias... You are right, we all have biases and I think if we come from a perspective that is not bias in concluding judgement about the scripture, that it is sufficient in demonstrating its Word.

Ya, so lets look at the prophecy... What is your criteria for prophecy?

Since you have left it up to me I suggest these:

viewtopic.php?t=2142&lofi=1

Lets start with Jeremiahs prophecy about Jerusalem (Jeremiah 31)... You believe this is false prophecy?

38 “The days are coming,� declares the Lord, “when this city will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. 40 The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the Lord. The city will never again be uprooted or demolished.�

Of course it is false prophecy. It fails multiple criteria. There are no specifics given on when this prophecy will come to pass --- it is completely open-ended because we can never know if Jerusalem will be destroyed again (as it was about 70CE). There is also no agreement among modern scholars on the location of most of the landmarks referred to in this passage — the Tower of Hananel, the Hill of Gareb, Goah, and so on. That makes it impossible to verify against present day Jerusalem (which has expanded to the north of the ancient city). Jerusalem has been captured and desolated several times from 2600 years ago and its current state still cannot be described as fully restored. Arab Muslims still control some areas of Jerusalem.

Was this really your best shot?

My best shot? There are more prophecies we can look at, but first...

I suggest you go back and read what I asked of you. First, I wanted you to start a new thread so we don't derail this one. You chose not to. Second, I wanted your single best candidate for a prophecy. That was to avoid this game of you dropping each failed attempt and immediately moving on to another, making an endless amount of work for me. Again, you want to ignore my request.

1) When did specific dates become requirements for prophecies? They arent... Look up "prophecy", get a definition, there is nothing that states it needs to name a specific date. Id suggest that your "criteria" (that you probably imagined up in your head) is a means of discrediting prophecy on standards that doesnt define prophecy... Its almost like a No True Scotsman fallacy, (but no true prophecy fallacy), on "criteria" you come up with to do so.

If you remember I asked you to do this job. Instead you left it up to me. Now you complain because you don't like for there to be any rules. (The criteria were not imagined up by me. I even provided you a link to them and as you can see I am not the author). It is not unreasonable that a specific date be given otherwise an alleged prophecy becomes vague and open-ended as I have explained. Here is another link if you don't like the first set of criteria:

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Biblical_ ... e_prophecy

Are you really telling me a prophecy cant have a "never again" element? Why would anyone need to accept this "criteria" from you?

I have already explained why. How do we know that Jerusalem won't be destroyed again in 10 years time via a terrorist attack (sneaking in an atomic bomb for example). We can't know. Therefore a prophecy which states that Jerusalem will never again be destroyed is useless. To validate it would require us to know the future right out to eternity. Since that is impossible, the "prophecy"can never be validated.

Actually this prophecy of "never again" is an extremely improbable prophecy that seems to be fulfilling...

2) when did prophecy become dependent on where scholars can agree upon exact locations? Maybe the prophecy should have read:

this city will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. 40 The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the Lord. The city will never again be uprooted or demolished.�, but only if scholars can agree on the location"
~Jeremiah

Very droll. If we have no way of determining these locations within the city, how do you suggest we determine the truth of the specifics of the "prophecy"? Do we guess?

We can certainly locate the location, even if scholars dont agree on the exact location of the landmarks. This is Jerusalem they are talking about, and we know where Jerusalem is, all the way back to that time.

The landmarks (place locations) are the issue not the location of Jerusalem itself.

What is a valid reason this prophecy is false?

I've given you a number of reasons. Until you argue against them (other than dismissing out of hand reasonable criteria for what constitutes a valid prophecy) I don't need any more.

[RedEye]

[Replying to post 30 by RedEye]

How about you lay out ALL your criteria, that i suspect will have nothing to do with the root definition/understanding of prophecy, but i want to see your criteria non-the-less

Click on the link I provided.

[Guy Threepwood]

[Replying to post 1 by RedEye]

#1 best seller and most influential book in the history of humanity.. is not inconsistent with a divine creation!

That said, the concept of faith is always important; you have faith your car will get you safely to your destination, not proof. So when you get in, you are committing to an act of faith - based on reasonable evidence.

So too with the Bible, for most I would say.

Some book has to be #1 best seller and most influential. That's just how book sales and influence works. Someone or something has to be #1, ahead of everything else.

Does that by itself establish that the thing in the #1 position is of divine origin? If I point out that Jim Clark
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Clark
is called the greatest Formula One racer of all time, does his position at #1 mean he's of divine origin?

best seller AND most influential. I've never heard of Jim Clark.

But if his legacy lives on and spans millennia, continents, cultures, and significantly influences the direction of mankind , then yes- i'd have to consider that might be part of a grander plan. But I think Jim, and all of us are to some degree.

Speaking of having faith in cars...no-one operates that way. Least of all governments. Governments these days tend to require you to keep your car in good condition, and not only that, to be able to prove such. Here in Ireland, we have the NCT
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Car_Test

I'm sure my old convertible would be verboten then! Obviously politicians like those laws, they are a great way to keep personal mobility out of reach for the 'riff raff', and make them more dependent on government transport and services. Auto manufacturers and repair shops are keen on them also. They do exist in some US states to some extent, but not where I live thank God!

Is there any such requirement of evidence or proof with regards to Christianity?

the best kind; personal experience

[Tart]

Good that you recognize being bias... You are right, we all have biases and I think if we come from a perspective that is not bias in concluding judgement about the scripture, that it is sufficient in demonstrating its Word.

Ya, so lets look at the prophecy... What is your criteria for prophecy?

Since you have left it up to me I suggest these:

viewtopic.php?t=2142&lofi=1

Lets start with Jeremiahs prophecy about Jerusalem (Jeremiah 31)... You believe this is false prophecy?

38 “The days are coming,� declares the Lord, “when this city will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. 40 The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the Lord. The city will never again be uprooted or demolished.�

Of course it is false prophecy. It fails multiple criteria. There are no specifics given on when this prophecy will come to pass --- it is completely open-ended because we can never know if Jerusalem will be destroyed again (as it was about 70CE). There is also no agreement among modern scholars on the location of most of the landmarks referred to in this passage — the Tower of Hananel, the Hill of Gareb, Goah, and so on. That makes it impossible to verify against present day Jerusalem (which has expanded to the north of the ancient city). Jerusalem has been captured and desolated several times from 2600 years ago and its current state still cannot be described as fully restored. Arab Muslims still control some areas of Jerusalem.

Was this really your best shot?

My best shot? There are more prophecies we can look at, but first...

I suggest you go back and read what I asked of you. First, I wanted you to start a new thread so we don't derail this one. You chose not to. Second, I wanted your single best candidate for a prophecy. That was to avoid this game of you dropping each failed attempt and immediately moving on to another, making an endless amount of work for me. Again, you want to ignore my request.

1) When did specific dates become requirements for prophecies? They arent... Look up "prophecy", get a definition, there is nothing that states it needs to name a specific date. Id suggest that your "criteria" (that you probably imagined up in your head) is a means of discrediting prophecy on standards that doesnt define prophecy... Its almost like a No True Scotsman fallacy, (but no true prophecy fallacy), on "criteria" you come up with to do so.

If you remember I asked you to do this job. Instead you left it up to me. Now you complain because you don't like for there to be any rules. (The criteria were not imagined up by me. I even provided you a link to them and as you can see I am not the author). It is not unreasonable that a specific date be given otherwise an alleged prophecy becomes vague and open-ended as I have explained. Here is another link if you don't like the first set of criteria:

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Biblical_ ... e_prophecy

Are you really telling me a prophecy cant have a "never again" element? Why would anyone need to accept this "criteria" from you?

I have already explained why. How do we know that Jerusalem won't be destroyed again in 10 years time via a terrorist attack (sneaking in an atomic bomb for example). We can't know. Therefore a prophecy which states that Jerusalem will never again be destroyed is useless. To validate it would require us to know the future right out to eternity. Since that is impossible, the "prophecy"can never be validated.

Actually this prophecy of "never again" is an extremely improbable prophecy that seems to be fulfilling...

2) when did prophecy become dependent on where scholars can agree upon exact locations? Maybe the prophecy should have read:

this city will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. 40 The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the Lord. The city will never again be uprooted or demolished.�, but only if scholars can agree on the location"
~Jeremiah

Very droll. If we have no way of determining these locations within the city, how do you suggest we determine the truth of the specifics of the "prophecy"? Do we guess?

We can certainly locate the location, even if scholars dont agree on the exact location of the landmarks. This is Jerusalem they are talking about, and we know where Jerusalem is, all the way back to that time.

The landmarks (place locations) are the issue not the location of Jerusalem itself.

What is a valid reason this prophecy is false?

I've given you a number of reasons. Until you argue against them (other than dismissing out of hand reasonable criteria for what constitutes a valid prophecy) I don't need any more.

So first of all, i think this subject is relevant to this topic... We can tell that it is authored by an "All Knowing" God by true prophecy... But if you continue to insist to move to another topic, fine. Id like to do a head on head, but it seems to be closed for some reason

Second, why shouldn't we conciser all prophecy? The Bible has been said to be composed of 1/3 prophecy... That is a lot of prophecy! Any true prophecy would be a good example...

And finally, why should we accept your criteria for prophecy? How is this not a classic "No True Scotsman Fallacy"? The criteria you are giving isnt only irrelevant to prophecy being prophecy, its not even independent...

Every list of criteria you are giving is coming from bias, and one sided sources, whom would have an interest in disqualifying prophecy... The sources you give for criteria are building a list, becuase they want to discredit prophecy.


For example, here are some quotes from your criteria...

"Different persons with different interpretations, and even vastly different expectations originating from diverse world views, should all reach virtually the same conclusion."

Yet this list isnt accepted by different persons with different interpretations. This list is proposed and accepted by non-believers... Why should we accept it? It seems like the only people who "reach virtually the same conclusion" about this criteria is nonbeliever...

"The event must be independently confirmed to have happened."

Shouldnt your list of criteria be held to the same standards that you set for prophecy? It should be independently confirmed...


"Definite empirical evidence must be publicly available to document that the prophecy predates its fulfillment." "Otherwise, knowledge of the outcomes could have influenced the selection process..."

How do we know your criteria hasnt been influenced in the same way you criticize the prophecy being influenced?

I could go on more, but i think you get the point...

Why should anyone accept your criteria from these biases, non independent sources, while you yourself would only accept prophecy that is independently verified?

It seems to me that these lists you give are created to disqualify prophecy from being considered as prophecy. It is a classic No True Scotsman fallacy.. How is it not?

"The prophecy must be clear and unambiguous." ~No it doesnt. Prophecy can be prophetic even if this criteria isnt met.

"The event must be a complete fulfillment of the prediction."~No it doesnt, prophecy could still be fulfilled in furture dates, and it would still be prophecy.

"The event must be shown to have actually happened."~Yes the event must have actually happened, objectively... But "showing" or convincing someone that an event happened, does not actually make a prophecy true or not.

"The prophecy must have happened before the event."~Yes this is true, however it goes on to say

"The prophetic statement must be proved to precede the fulfillment event in time. Definite empirical evidence must be publicly available to document that the prophecy predates its fulfillment"~No, proving a prophecy doesnt create that prophecy or fulfill that event.. This is criteria on "you have to convince me about it", which is completely irrelevant to whether or not a prophecy is actually true..

"The event must not have been artificially created by a person who knew of the prophecy, with the intent of fulfilling it."~Yes and no... It should not be self fulfilled, but fulfilled in destiny, whether the person knows about it or not could be considered irrelevant

"The prophecy must not have been a logical guess."~The claim is that the Prophecy in the Bible is a revelation from God, we have no evidence of people making their best guess...



I could go on, if you'd like, should we discuss the criteria, and you and I come to accept reasonable criteria, and agree upon it? Id be happy to discuss each point listed, and discuss why it should or shouldnt be accept as criteria.


But this list is a list created as a fallacy, and much of it is irrelevant to whether prophecy is true...

[RedEye]

Good that you recognize being bias... You are right, we all have biases and I think if we come from a perspective that is not bias in concluding judgement about the scripture, that it is sufficient in demonstrating its Word.

Ya, so lets look at the prophecy... What is your criteria for prophecy?

Since you have left it up to me I suggest these:

viewtopic.php?t=2142&lofi=1

Lets start with Jeremiahs prophecy about Jerusalem (Jeremiah 31)... You believe this is false prophecy?

38 “The days are coming,� declares the Lord, “when this city will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. 40 The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the Lord. The city will never again be uprooted or demolished.�

Of course it is false prophecy. It fails multiple criteria. There are no specifics given on when this prophecy will come to pass --- it is completely open-ended because we can never know if Jerusalem will be destroyed again (as it was about 70CE). There is also no agreement among modern scholars on the location of most of the landmarks referred to in this passage — the Tower of Hananel, the Hill of Gareb, Goah, and so on. That makes it impossible to verify against present day Jerusalem (which has expanded to the north of the ancient city). Jerusalem has been captured and desolated several times from 2600 years ago and its current state still cannot be described as fully restored. Arab Muslims still control some areas of Jerusalem.

Was this really your best shot?

My best shot? There are more prophecies we can look at, but first...

I suggest you go back and read what I asked of you. First, I wanted you to start a new thread so we don't derail this one. You chose not to. Second, I wanted your single best candidate for a prophecy. That was to avoid this game of you dropping each failed attempt and immediately moving on to another, making an endless amount of work for me. Again, you want to ignore my request.

1) When did specific dates become requirements for prophecies? They arent... Look up "prophecy", get a definition, there is nothing that states it needs to name a specific date. Id suggest that your "criteria" (that you probably imagined up in your head) is a means of discrediting prophecy on standards that doesnt define prophecy... Its almost like a No True Scotsman fallacy, (but no true prophecy fallacy), on "criteria" you come up with to do so.

If you remember I asked you to do this job. Instead you left it up to me. Now you complain because you don't like for there to be any rules. (The criteria were not imagined up by me. I even provided you a link to them and as you can see I am not the author). It is not unreasonable that a specific date be given otherwise an alleged prophecy becomes vague and open-ended as I have explained. Here is another link if you don't like the first set of criteria:

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Biblical_ ... e_prophecy

Are you really telling me a prophecy cant have a "never again" element? Why would anyone need to accept this "criteria" from you?

I have already explained why. How do we know that Jerusalem won't be destroyed again in 10 years time via a terrorist attack (sneaking in an atomic bomb for example). We can't know. Therefore a prophecy which states that Jerusalem will never again be destroyed is useless. To validate it would require us to know the future right out to eternity. Since that is impossible, the "prophecy"can never be validated.

Actually this prophecy of "never again" is an extremely improbable prophecy that seems to be fulfilling...

2) when did prophecy become dependent on where scholars can agree upon exact locations? Maybe the prophecy should have read:

this city will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. 40 The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the Lord. The city will never again be uprooted or demolished.�, but only if scholars can agree on the location"
~Jeremiah

Very droll. If we have no way of determining these locations within the city, how do you suggest we determine the truth of the specifics of the "prophecy"? Do we guess?

We can certainly locate the location, even if scholars dont agree on the exact location of the landmarks. This is Jerusalem they are talking about, and we know where Jerusalem is, all the way back to that time.

The landmarks (place locations) are the issue not the location of Jerusalem itself.

What is a valid reason this prophecy is false?

I've given you a number of reasons. Until you argue against them (other than dismissing out of hand reasonable criteria for what constitutes a valid prophecy) I don't need any more.

So first of all, i think this subject is relevant to this topic... We can tell that it is authored by an "All Knowing" God by true prophecy... But if you continue to insist to move to another topic, fine. Id like to do a head on head, but it seems to be closed for some reason

Then go ahead and start a thread with your single best candidate for a prophecy.

Second, why shouldn't we conciser all prophecy?

I already explained why.

The Bible has been said to be composed of 1/3 prophecy... That is a lot of prophecy! Any true prophecy would be a good example...

Then you should have no problem in the thread you create.

And finally, why should we accept your criteria for prophecy?

Because you passed on setting some criteria as I asked and the criteria I provided are quite reasonable if we want to determine what a "true" prophecy is. Without such criteria you will want to claim almost anything as a valid prophecy.

How is this not a classic "No True Scotsman Fallacy"?

Easy to answer. Because we have yet to define (via common sense criteria) what a "true" prophecy is. That is is what I am attempting to do. A Scotsman is any man who is from Scotland. What constitutes a prophecy and what separates it from a mere prediction? You need some criteria (in effect a definition). Right?

I have snipped the rest because I really think you should start a new thread to prevent further derailment of this one. If you like, in that thread, come up with your own criteria I will consider them and we can come to some agreement. Fair enough?