Another Proof That God Does Not Exist

[RedEye]

Definitions:
God - the creator of the universe.

Syllogisms:
P1: Something can only be created if time exists.
P2: Time is a fundamental part of the universe.
C1: The universe cannot have been created.

P3: It is not possible for the universe to have a creator (from C1).
P4: God is only necessary as an explanation for the origin of the universe.
C2: God, as defined, does not exist.

Support for Premises:
P1 - For something to have been created there must be a moment in time where it did not exist and then a moment in time in which it did. Creation is a temporal (time-related) concept. The word "created" is incoherent without time.
P2 - We know from the work of Albert Einstein and the physics of the 20th and 21st centuries that we live in a universe whose fabric consists of space-time. The only time we know is part of our universe and again, it is incoherent to talk about the passage of time without the universe already existing.
P3 - Follows from conclusion C1.
P4 - Follows from the definition of God.

Can anyone fault this logical proof? Which premises (if any) are wrong?

Note: To refute this proof you must show that either it is not valid (the conclusions do not follow from the premises) or that it is not sound (there is a problem with one or more premises). For the latter, please nominate a premise and then carefully explain why we cannot accept it. Only by invalidating a premise can you invalidate the argument as a whole. (Unless you can show that one of the syllogisms has a conclusion which does not follow from its premises).

[2ndRateMind]

How easily you forget your own words, even when provided in bold to you.

Copy/paste: "And if this lies outside your experience, then truly, you do not know God, and will not recognize Him, come the end of days."

And why should pointing out this truth be a scare tactic? Any more than pointing out that if God is good, then He is also just, and, come the end of days, justice will be done? Are you scared then, of justice, or of not recognising God? I don't see why you should be, if you don't believe, anyway.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[rikuoamero]

How easily you forget your own words, even when provided in bold to you.

Copy/paste: "And if this lies outside your experience, then truly, you do not know God, and will not recognize Him, come the end of days."

And why should pointing out this truth be a scare tactic? Any more than pointing out that if God is good, then He is also just, and, come the end of days, justice will be done? Are you scared then, of justice, or of not recognising God? I don't see why you should be, if you don't believe, anyway.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Where is the justice in punishing for literal ignorance?

[2ndRateMind]

How easily you forget your own words, even when provided in bold to you.

Copy/paste: "And if this lies outside your experience, then truly, you do not know God, and will not recognize Him, come the end of days."

And why should pointing out this truth be a scare tactic? Any more than pointing out that if God is good, then He is also just, and, come the end of days, justice will be done? Are you scared then, of justice, or of not recognising God? I don't see why you should be, if you don't believe, anyway.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Where is the justice in punishing for literal ignorance?

It is a well established principle of justice that 'Ignorantia juris non excusat'* If it was, we could all claim to be ignorant that our offenses were against the law, and no one would ever be guilty of anything. But the law is, and justice is, and we should consider it a civil duty to make ourselves aware of them.

Best wishes, 2RM.

*Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

[Clownboat]

How easily you forget your own words, even when provided in bold to you.

Copy/paste: "And if this lies outside your experience, then truly, you do not know God, and will not recognize Him, come the end of days."

And why should pointing out this truth be a scare tactic?

Please show that you speak the truth or do the honorable thing and retract your claim or at least call it what it is, just your opinion.

Pretentious arrogence is not debate. Showing/suggesting that your words are true is debate.

Please get off your soap box. Preaching is against the rules.

Now, if you feel that you are some authority on the gods here on this planet, I would love to know why you feel this way and why I should consider you to be an authority.

Any more than pointing out that if God is good, then He is also just, and, come the end of days, justice will be done?

Not so fast there guy.
First things first. Show there is a god and that he is good, then we can discuss justice and this end of days threat you seem to enjoy leveling at your fellow humans.

Are you scared then, of justice, or of not recognising God?

No more than I am scared of Santa Clause.
How much do you fear Santa or the Easter Bunny. What a silly question!

I don't see why you should be, if you don't believe, anyway.

And yet you asked the question anyways.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 293 by 2ndRateMind]

It is a well established principle of justice that 'Ignorantia juris non excusat'* If it was, we could all claim to be ignorant that our offenses were against the law, and no one would ever be guilty of anything. But the law is, and justice is, and we should consider it a civil duty to make ourselves aware of them.

This isn't the same thing as claiming to be unaware that it's illegal to rape (yes, have heard about that) or murder. I literally possess no knowledge as to any actual gods. I have knowledge as to what other people have claimed are gods, but actual gods? Nope. I have no knowledge as to any actual such creatures.
In the real world, it is a more or less trivial matter to rid oneself of any ignorance as to laws. If I want to know what the speed limit is, the government puts helpful signs up on the road. The government makes itself known, makes sure that the citizenry knows that it exists, that it pronounces laws and will punish those who violate them.
Your god? Any god? No god has made itself known to me. So I ask you again - where is the justice in punishing literal ignorance? Let's say today I choke on my dinner and die. I then find myself in some mystical ethereal place.
Where would the justice be if it turns out there is in fact a god who then says I am to be punished? For simply being unaware of his existence? I have searched for god(s) for a significant chunk of my life. God(s) if they exist would have the power and knowledge to make themselves known to me quite easily, and yet it hasn't happened. So why do I deserve to be punished? Where is the justice?

Unless...it's not about justice at all. Have you thought that maybe, just maybe, all this talk from religion about punishing those who are not adherents of gods actually IS a threat, a scare tactic, to keep bums in seats, to try to prevent people from leaving? To prevent people from pulling back the curtain and finding out the truth about Oz, the Great and Powerful?

So please, run through my scenario. I'd really like to know where you think the justice is in that. Would it be just to punish people for not knowing about quantum mechanics, or trigonometry? Or cell division?

[2ndRateMind]

To the bold... can you not do better than scare tactics? ...

...If you had a god behind you, I submit you could do better than this. I say, let's leave the scare tactics to the terrorists. Your mileage may vary...

Hmmm. Not sure why advocating universal, unconditional love might be considered a scare tactic. Or, indeed, deploying the notion that those who do not love necessarily cannot know a God who is love. Perhaps you can explain?

Best wishes, 2RM.

How easily you forget your own words, even when provided in bold to you.

Copy/paste: "And if this lies outside your experience, then truly, you do not know God, and will not recognize Him, come the end of days."

Why you invent some unconditional love to be the scare tactic you think I am addressing seems disingenuous to me.

Hmmm. I am not sure why the commonplace idea that God is love, and expresses Himself by unconditional love, seems disingenuous to you. I am merely repeating what most Christians, of whatever denomination, have said and will tell you, if you only ask them and listen to their answers.

As for experiencing and recognising love, then this is not meant as a scare tactic, just the report of reality as I find it to be. By analogy, if you have been blind since birth, you will not comprehend what is meant by 'red'. Similarly, if you have never loved, wholly, deeply, utterly and completely, you cannot expect to realise the joy of that love reciprocated. Or recognise it, when it is freely gifted.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[2ndRateMind]

Your god? Any god? No god has made itself known to me. So I ask you again - where is the justice in punishing literal ignorance? Let's say today I choke on my dinner and die. I then find myself in some mystical ethereal place.
Where would the justice be if it turns out there is in fact a god who then says I am to be punished? For simply being unaware of his existence? I have searched for god(s) for a significant chunk of my life. God(s) if they exist would have the power and knowledge to make themselves known to me quite easily, and yet it hasn't happened.

Relax. As far is I can make out, most people, most of the time, tend towards goodness. And it would be an unjust God indeed that punished good people for the mere paucity of their world view.

As for coming to know that God exists; well, in my experience, that is a search of the heart, not of the brain. It is love, not intellect, that will provide you with the proof you seek. And should anyone claim that is not objective proof, only subjective opinion, then they are entirely correct. And that is why we refer to belief in God as 'faith', and not 'knowledge'. And though all our proofs are subjectively experienced, they are are relevant and convincing for each individual, and confirm us in our disposition to believe, even if they persuade no one else.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 297 by 2ndRateMind]

As for coming to know that God exists; well, in my experience, that is a search of the heart, not of the brain.

Last I checked, the heart pumps blood. It does no thinking or processing of any kind, not like the brain, which you mention it in conjunction with. So I have to wonder why you mentioned the two here, as if they are in any way similar?

It is love, not intellect, that will provide you with the proof you seek.

Love is an emotion, nothing to do with the organ called the heart. Unless when you say "heart" you mean something else? But why mention the heart alongside the organ known as the brain, if you don't mean the organ heart?

And should anyone claim that is not objective proof, only subjective opinion, then they are entirely correct. And why we refer to belief in God as 'faith', and not 'knowledge'.

So am I at liberty to reject any (and all) claims of knowledge of God, including that of the Christian deity?

And it would be an unjust God indeed that punished good people for the mere paucity of their world view.

What if your God does do this, regardless? Would you call this God unjust? Even to his face?

[2ndRateMind]

[Replying to post 297 by 2ndRateMind]

And it would be an unjust God indeed that punished good people for the mere paucity of their world view.

What if your God does do this, regardless? Would you call this God unjust? Even to his face?

Yup. I'm an arrogant son of a bitch; so arrogant that if God were to depart from my conception of justice without reasonable explanation, I would prefer Hell amongst the damned to Heaven amongst the intimidated.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 297 by 2ndRateMind]

And it would be an unjust God indeed that punished good people for the mere paucity of their world view.

What if your God does do this, regardless? Would you call this God unjust? Even to his face?

Yup. I'm an arrogant son of a bitch; so arrogant that if God were to depart from my conception of justice without reasonable explanation, I would prefer Hell amongst the damned to Heaven amongst the intimidated.

Best wishes, 2RM.

If ever you and I meet, I'm buying you a beer. I am actually that arrogant. A God who punishes simply because I was unaware of his existence is not a God I would be comfortable staying with, to say the very least.
However, what I find curious is that you are a Christian. James Chapter 4 has the following verse
"You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God."
Or 2nd Corinthians
"Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever? What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you, and I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty.�"